No good deed goes unpunished
Does it ever end?
I will probably be flogged by some of you for the following tale, just like the SO will be flogged in court, but here goes--SS (17 years old) is an amazing kid who has acted as a rock for his sister (12 yrs) during the separation and divorce of his parents. BM plays the ultimate victim (though she is the one who left the marriage to seek comfort in the arms of another), and is so busy enjoying her new found freedom, she over-relies on SS to parent his sister.
BM has a brother (from who she is somewhat estranged due to her self-centered outlook on life) that founded a national charity that feeds needy people on Thanksgiving. It is based in another state than our state of residence. SS has always wanted to meet his uncle and uncle's family, and participate in the work of the charity. When he turned 17 this past August, SO thought a great gift to present to him would be a short trip to meet his uncle and participate in the charity.
We contacted the uncle, who was so glad to hear of it and welcomed the idea with open arms. SO and I discussed the idea with SS, who was very excited. We also discussed the fact that his mother would most likely want to go as well, despite she hadn't spoken with or attempted to visit her brother in 17 years. He wanted to go on his own, without mother and sister in tow, because though it was never said aloud, it is known the trip would then be all about her, instead of him getting to know his uncle's family and participate in the charity work. SS said (about when BM should be told about the trip) "it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission". Though it put SO at risk of the wrath of BM, he chose not to tell her about the plan until he put SO on the plane, to protect SS from being bullied into sharing his experience or made to feel bad for wanting to embark on this adventure alone.
So arrangements were made. Fast forward to November. Despite the fact that BM had dumped her kids on us every Thanksgiving since she left SO to spend with her boyfriend across the state, turns out he dumped her over the summer and she scheduled herself to take the kids this Thanksgiving. The trip was four nights, with SS returning on Thanksgiving Day (the thought in September, before the schedule was known, was to make sure he could spend time with BM on Thanksgiving). The trip turned out to include three days she scheduled herself to have the kids, two of which, she was at work and apparently planned to have SS provide childcare for his 12 year old sister (who is mature enough to not need it).
As you can all imagine, shit hit the fan when SO informed BM the 17 year old was on a plane. After calling him a self-righteous Pr*%k, she stated, "you know I have always wanted to go to (insert town of her brother's residence" which pretty much proved SS's hunch that his mom would have barged into his trip. SS went, had a wonderful time, got to do the charity work, and flew back on Thanksgiving Day, then met up with his mom at the friend's house they went to for Thanksgiving. During the period of time, SO endured multiple phone calls from BM, detailing his failures as a human, and the wrath that will now pour down on him s a result of not telling her about the trip. Of course, her line to SS during his trip was, "I am so happy you are having a great time, that's all that matters"
Yesterday SO was served with contempt of court paperwork, for violating the custody order. Its a toughie, cause my understanding is you can't make a 17 year old exercise visitation (eg spend thanksgiving with mom), but SO wants to protect SS from her wrath because he doesn't want to put his kid in the position of telling her he didn't want her to know because she would have barged on his trip. SO will face the potential of 5 days in jail/$1,000 fine. He lawyered up, and will answer to it, but it just seems vindictive, given the outcome will no doubt affect the kids adversely. Bummer.
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Is there a reason why SS
Is there a reason why SS can't tell his mother that he wanted to go alone? I understand not wanting to put the kid in the middle, but he's almost an adult, so maybe it's time for him to start setting his own boundaries with his mother.
I completely agree. At 17,
I completely agree. At 17, it's about time the SS growns the courage to tell his mother what he wants. I think he knows that as well, and so now he must «ask for forgiveness» as he said himself.
BM is a bully, plain and
BM is a bully, plain and simple, especially to the men in her family.
SS doesn't even want to live with her (he has told my daughter, 13 yrs) this, but he doesn't want to abandon his sister. If he had his choice, he would live with his dad full time, but the poor kid is his sister's keeper (they are very close) and doesn't want her to face the wrath of BM alone. Shortly before his trip, I had a discussion with him about the fact that his mom was going to be pissed, and that I wanted him to understand, this whole thing wasn't to screw her over, it was for him to be able to go and meet his family on his own terms, get to know them as his own man.
I explained his sister was upset that SO and I do not have the same kind of co-operative relationship with his BM that my ex and I enjoy. His sister wants us all to be able to blend, but the reason that was not a possibility was not because of me, but because I loved his dad very much, BM was very disparaging towards him, and I can't be around to hear that because no good would come from a conflict between her and I. We never say anything negative about BM to the kids, we just have no direct contact with her if possible.
He said he understood that, and went on to tell me that even though SO and BM had told both kids at the time of separation that they would still be a family and not disparage each other, SS had to eventually tell BM to stop talking shit about his dad. Poor damn kid, he is in a rock and a hard place with a BM who truly is a narcissist (the reason she is largely estranged from her own family), and will emotionally punish him and his sister if he speaks his truth.
First, did your SO actually
First, did your SO actually violate the CO? Because I don't understand how BM gets to "schedule" her parenting time without your SO being involved.
Also, even if he is found guilty, contempt penalties are usually nothing more than a slap on the wrist in family court. We took BM last year, when she knowingly and willingly violated the order. The judge didn't convict because even though she knew BM did it on purpose, the CO was a tiny bit (the tiniest bit ever!) unclear. So she got told to do better.
SO paid thousands of dollars
SO paid thousands of dollars to do collaborative meditation, with resulted in a stipulated MSA agreement, not the best arrangement to have with a narcissist, but he wanted to come to an agreement that would have the least negative impact on his kids as possible.
He has a crazy work schedule (48 hours on/4days off) so the agreement says they alternate months devising the custody schedule. He didn't know until Oct 15th what her plan for November was. Technically, he should have told her.
Aaaaaahhhhh. That sucks. He
Aaaaaahhhhh. That sucks. He should've told her. Hindsight is 20/20.
We deal with Narcs, as well. Both BM and My XH are on that spectrum, if you will, so I get how hard it must be.
Sounds like SS gets to learn how to stand up to Mom in court. At his age, he'll have to speak with the judge himself, I suspect.
Yes, hopefully at 17 they let
Yes, hopefully at 17 they let SS speak for himself.
SS sounds like an honorable young man. I love how selfless he is in doing what he's not wanting to do, just to protect his sister. I myself am the 1st born of 3, hyper-responsible. Hard to do as a minor with few rights, let alone a cray-cray BM!
Honestly DH shouldn't have to
Honestly DH shouldn't have to much trouble with this if it's a one off and you can show the mother has not exercised visitation on Thanksgiving in an extended period of time which would give you reason to believe she wouldn't again. The child is also 17 which means he's almost an adult and with her not even being home it's unreasonable to expect him to sit there by himself / use him as free babysitting.
Now if you've repeatedly denied her visitation / its a young child you might have alot of explaining to do.
Also with SS being 17 he needs to go to court to protect his dad because he is pretty much an adult. He needs to start taking responsibility and really it would be the big push that DH should have to defend himself.
SO has always followed all
SO has always followed all provisions of the agreement to the extreme. One of the things BM demanded (as punishment for his daring to send SS to her brother's) was that she would have the kids Dec 22-26, despite the fact she previously had no plans to do anything special for them at Christmas. He is responsible for devising the December schedule, and complied with her demand. Its a contest for her now, who can be the most fun parent.
The reason the kids like our place better is because it is stable, not particularly fun. Home work must be handled, bed time is a 9, food is always in the cupboards, and the place is clean.
He doesn't need to give into
He doesn't need to give into her wishes. He needs to follow the order. This is punishing the children not just you guys. You're now saying that the 17 year old MUST go to his mom's and play babysitter for her. Like you said your home is better because it's actually better. She's not doing this to be better she's doing it to get back at you guys.
I totally agree, it is about
I totally agree, it is about punishing SO, at the kids' expense. SO has always kept them out of the loop regarding her ugliness. He wants them to be kids, not emotional pawns.
His kids would be devastated to know she has initiated a court proceeding against their dad, in her pleadings she said she will be seeking a custodial change based upon her inability to trust he will comply with the order. The kids are super close with their dad, and would be really, really adversely affected by not enjoying the 50-50 schedule they have had since their parents split.
The difficulty SO and I are having is not wanting to talk about this with the kids, because it seems emotionally manipulative to discuss pending court actions with them. We don't want to burden their hearts with adult stuff, or say negative things about BM.
The caveat is that if she is
The caveat is that if she is talking to them and you guys aren't, then they only hear the BS and none of the truth. Both of these kids are old enough to have their preferences heard by the court on custody matters, and unless they want more quality time with Mommie Dearest, they will both have to "man up."
When you're dealing with a Narc, the kids become the weapon. You can't just pretend like a hand grenade isn't going to blow up, and that seems like what your DH has been doing in his attempts to protect them. What example does that set for them, and how does it set them up to be able to deal with her long term?
I don't think she is talking
I don't think she is talking to them about it, because she always wants to look like the best parent, and they would seriously freak out if they knew she was trying to pull this to punish their dad. I do agree with you though, regarding helping them have tools to deal with her. Up to this point, we have taken an extremely conservative approach about discussing her behavior with them. They have no idea she ended the marriage, I just told them at one point (figuring she had said otherwise) that I played no role in the end of their marriage, nor did their father.
Even SS's little sister was stoked for him when I told her the morning he flew out where he was going and why. We didn't tell her about it either, because we didn't want to put her in the middle and because her mother pumps her for information about what goes on in our house. Both kids will be floored that their mother has chosen to take this action.
My fear in telling them, is she will say we are engaging in parental alienation.
If SS had to speak with her
If SS had to speak with her about not saying ugly things about Dad, then you're already dealing with PA. My guess is that BM told them that Dad (or you!) ended their marriage--or let them infer that to be the case. I know that's what happened with my skids.
I wouldn't be surprised if you found out that BM has been talking to the skids very casually about which house they'd rather live in, have Christmas, etc., and if they're as weak-willed as my skids, they just agree with her, whether it's what they think or not, which she takes as justification for taking legal action.
The pumping for information is something to be really careful with and about. Our BM used to pump SD, who is not her favored child, by giving her all the love and affection if she gave her good information. SS is her golden boy and new informant. He's relatively clueless, so I don't think she's getting as good of intel as she once did, but man did she make our lives hard for awhile. That, too, is PA.
Parental narcissism is really hard to deal with as a kid. There aren't self-help books for kids about it, and no therapist will tell them that their parent has a personality disorder that makes them act like unpredictable jerks. So they grow up thinking it's them that's perceiving things wrong, or that they're just not good enough to be loved unconditionally, which takes a lifetime to fix.
Ironically, even though I
Ironically, even though I told the daughter the whole trip was a surprise to SS (to protect him from having to answer to BM for knowing and wanting to go solo in advance), she apparently immediately texted SS's girlfriend and asked her if and how long she knew about SS's trip.
The girlfriend, innocent to the communication issues in their family, told the 12 year old she and SS had known for a long time.
When we picked up SS at the airport and mentioned that his girlfriend had inadvertently spilled the beans, he said he already knew that because BM and his sister were both on the phone with him while he was on the trip and the 12 year old said she had heard his girlfriend knew about the trip in advance (!)
He said he immediately did damage control with the girlfriend to tweak the story. It's just so sad this awful lady uses her kids like this, what a shitty position for the boy to be in, feeling the need to conceal his true feelings and lie, and for the daughter to act as an unwitting inquisitor on her mother's behalf.
Kids of narcs spend their
Kids of narcs spend their whole lives twisting themselves into pretzels to get and keep their narc parent's love.
I have literally asked my skids why they work so hard to keep BM happy. Neither one of them understands what they're doing. It's trained into them, literally from birth.
So damn sad for them. I don't
So damn sad for them. I don't hold it against the daughter, you are right, she is unwittingly being used by the mother. SO and I just keep things under wraps around her to minimize her conflicted loyalties.
I have a good relationship with both kids, a very good one with SS. He spends a lot of time in our house whether his dad is there or not (food, stability), he and I have had many discussions about all kinds of things, including the fact that we "surprise" them with things a lot because we know his sister gets pumped for info, not because we are trying to be shady. I've even been able to ask him if he sent me an FB friend request when it showed up in my inbox, and explain the reason I didn't accept was because I feared it didn't come from him, but rather his mother (she immediately blocked me when SO told her we had begun to date years ago, but has SS's account password). Turns out he didn't send it himself.
I so want to tell him what is going on as a result of the trip, but I don't want to add to the conflict.
Oh, the good ol spy on us
Oh, the good ol spy on us from the skids' face books. DH told OSD that he knew that BM was looking at our face books through the kids. She said, "No she's not!" I am not even kidding, I think it was like less than 24 hours later, OSD's boyfriend says "How did you just post on Facebook, you weren't even touching your phone?" I couldn't help but laugh. I felt bad for boyfriend, he had NO IDEA about the conversation before that.
Good for you! Your
Good for you! Your communication with SS is good. We had similar trepidation about telling SS about court. It's kind of like the birds & bees talk; you explain the basics at an age-apprpriate level. And it sounds like you are doing this very well.
Toxic BM is a sad, sad thing to see, especially since the pawns I mean kids pay the price no matter what we try to do to fully protect them.
I would be very interested in
I would be very interested in the outcome of this case, especially if any judge would up hold this as a contempt issue. SS17 decided not to spend time with his mother, It is not as if your DH trussed him up, stuffed the kid in the cupboard and prevented him from going to his mom. Also it seems this trip was scheduled before BM decided to "schedule herself" for Thanksgiving.
I am sorry, I am glad your DH lawyered up and defended this. He should ask for costs because this filing is ridiculous. I am sure it will probably get tossed out, unless the judge is an insane BM.
I will definitely be sure to
I will definitely be sure to keep you all updated. The court date is set for mid-January.
I don't think there's much to
I don't think there's much to go on here. SS is 17, BM hasn't seen her brother in years and technically, SS17 did still spend Thanksgiving with his BM. It is laughable, at best. Just have SS17 speak to the judge, explain what happened. Then DH should mention that it is what is son wanted to do and BM has been estranged from her brother for years.
I really don't see the horrible crime committed, tbh.
I appreciate all the feed
I appreciate all the feed back, this adulting thing is pretty stressful. We are just trying to do the right thing by two great kids.
Did she get a new lawyer for
Did she get a new lawyer for this case?
No, she is representing
No, she is representing herself (though she did ask for, then erase a request for attorney fees and costs-it's all about the money and vindication to her).
She filed the paper work the day after SO told her SS was on his way to the brother's place.
Funny thing is, she could
Funny thing is, she could have demanded SS be on the next flight back, but didn't.
She tried to tell SO it was now his responsibility to provide for childcare for the 12 year old that Monday and Tuesday, because she expected the 17 year old to do it. He flew out on a Sunday (SO's day), she scheduled herself to have them Mon, Tues, and Thurs of that week, both kids were on Thanksgiving break from school. So she was deprived of having one kid (who was her childcare option on his school break) two and a half days that week.
SO had a 48 hour shift Mon and Tues and declined to assumed her parental responsibilities those days, which really pissed her off. The 12 year old was just fine, btw.
If she doesn't even have an
If she doesn't even have an attorney, I wouldn't worry about it. She'll just end up tripping herself up in court.
California. I used to work in
California.
I used to work in family court, so I know the court looks very unfavorably upon involving the kids in the courtroom proceedings, generally only in a custody evaluation type setting, where the kids meet one on one with a court mediator, neither parent present.
Were it not for the huge expense of it all, I would love to see a much more restrictive custody agreement, for SO and the kid's protection, one that defines holidays, etc. SO is hesitant to re-open custody because BM plays the big "poor single mother" card (despite the fact that he has 50% custody and is the one to make sure all doctor's appointments are made, school sports transportation arranged, etc), and he is afraid that the court will have a bias toward the mother's favor.
And we are not really
And we are not really concerned about Christmas, other than it will be a bummer for his kids to not be here at all, because they enjoy the Brady Bunch thing we have going on, and like to spend time in our house.
He has already done the December schedule, and assigned those days to her, we will celebrate around it.
We in Cali too & you are
We in Cali too & you are right, 12+ can speak for themselves @ custody hearings. That is 100% the only way DH could have ever even gotten custody since our BM is also a vindictive narcissist... (gag). I look forward to your updates.
So what does BM get by filing
So what does BM get by filing contempt of court? Nothing... other than the "satisfaction" that she was right?? I really don't understand what her point is here (other than to be an asshole)
Yes, your DH probably should have told BM, I know as a BM I'd be pissed if my kid was off travelling on a plane and visiting another city/town without my knowledge. BUT to file contempt of court?? Again, what is the point of that?
Meh, I know it's easier said than done, but if your DH is a good father and has never had any issues of this nature in the past, and has a decent lawyer, I can't see any judge throwing him in the clink and slapping him with max fine.
Sadly, the "satisfaction" is
Sadly, the "satisfaction" is exactly what she is seeking.
She doesn't ask for anything in her moving papers, it reads more like "I want the court to tell SO he is a bad man" She says something about fear of retaliation, in what way, she doesn't state.
I suspect she wants a finding of contempt so she can petition for a larger share of custodial time with the 12 year old, because the 17 year old will age out in 8 months and her child support will be reduced.
I feel for your skids.
I feel for your skids. However, I think they'll come out on the other side ok.
BM here is very much like your BM. My skids are adults and are well adjusted, happy and functioning members of society.
They tell BM very little about DH and I. If she knew how much time SD spends at our house or how often SS calls to just chat, she'd loose her mind.
They learned long ago to not tell BM of their plans until the last min in an effort to limit how long they have to deal with her reactions.
SS didn't tell her he was moving to his GFs town till the day before he left. He then had to pack his truck with her crying and begging him to stay.
SD made the mistake of thinking BM would be happy to hear she was going to Europe for 6 weeks. She had to endure six months of crying and yelling and fear mongering.
They know what she's like and they do their best to deal with it and not hurt her. If she's not in control, its worse mistake of their lives.
What annoys the h@// out of me is that she always plays the I Love MY Kids card, that's why she doesn't want them to go anywhere or do anything without her.
Are we talking about the same
Are we talking about the same lady?! hahaha
Yep, all of that.
It sucks for them, they are also fairly well adjusted kids, who will no doubt be highly functional adults. Her need to control and use them to draw attention to herself is exactly the reason things went down the way they did. SO is not the guy who tries to screw with the mother of his children to be an asshole, he wants his kids to as normal of a childhood as is possible with a mom like that.
We live in a small town, have a lot of mutual mommy friends, I'm sure you can all appreciate how much I have enjoyed hearing how BM represents herself as a struggling single mom trying her best to take care of her kids, despite negligent dad and his slutty girlfriend. She even had the nerve to cry such a sob story about having to move out of the family residence (after 18 months of free rent) to a much smaller place, that these friends pooled their money to get her a $450 gift card to buy storage containers. She didn't mention the fact that she had just received $100,000+ from the sale of the house and SO's retirement. Classy.
It is the same BM!! She and
It is the same BM!!
She and DH lived in a smallish town, a hamlet 15 mins from our big city. She cried to Everyone about what an ass DH was. How he'd left her high and dry. How she was a struggling single mom.
She kicked him out. She kept the house but then sold it and used the $$ and company funds to build another house for her and the kids. He gave her between $5K -$8K a month in non court ordered support. She cashed out company accounts and used the money to buy a new wardrobe because she got new boobs.
Luckily everyone in town knew DH and liked him much more than they liked her. In fact that was one of her biggest problems in the marriage. People would only talk to her if he was there too. She hates not being the centre of attention.
All the crap things she told the skids about him were contradicted by their friends parents. They talk and kids over hear stuff. DH never said a bad thing about BM.
These kids aren't stupid. They love their mom, they will defend her, they will stand up for her but they don't let her run their lives. When they need life advice they come to DH. He won't bash BM but if they ask for the truth, he gives it to them.
If she’s filing herself, once
If she’s filing herself, once your attorney does an EOA, I predict she’ll move to dismiss it. Pro se vs attorney rarely turns out well for the pro se.
I'm pretty sure she will
I'm pretty sure she will carry on, because she feels she has been seriously wronged (she is never at fault for anything), and isn't tremendously bright about practical matters. She wants revenge because she didn't get the glory of taking credit for the whole idea.
What does everyone think about discussing the issue with the SS?
As I have stated before, we loathe the thought of involving the kids, but the only real defense SO has is that SS wanted to go on the trip and didn't want to have to deal with the ramifications of telling his mom he would rather do that alone. BM will find out when this defense is presented, leaving SS in the position of being blindsided by her rage and feelings of betrayal.
"What does everyone think
"What does everyone think about discussing the issue with the SS?"
I would say talk to him, ask him how he feels about it. He knows what his mom is like. He's the one who didn't want to tell her in the first place. It's time for him to beg forgiveness because he didn't ask permission. He might even have a strategy to deal with her that you and DH haven't thought of.
DOn't stress to much about
DOn't stress to much about it, BM is trying to be in control, I have a feeling this will back fire on her,
DH will not go to jail not pay a fine, his Lawyer can simply say BM never took the kids for TG and left them with DH, SS had the opportunity to do some charity work and decided to do it, by the way - SS got home in time for TG, thus what's her problem..
Thanks again everyone, for
Thanks again everyone, for not pointing out how stupid it is to put ourselves at such a clear disadvantage to do right by the SS.
I will keep you in the loop as the shit show unfolds haha
As an interesting aside, the brother from out of state texted SO last night (he really loved SS, and that they all had a chance to get to know each other). He let SO know he would be in a nearby town on business and would love to meet up for dinner with all of us, because he has never met SD, and how much he looked forward to connecting with the skids.
He asked SO if the drama with his sister had settled down, SO said, "Nope, it has just begun." BM's brother then offered to help in any way he could (!). Of course, SO assure him "It is what it is" not wanting to draw him into this petty conflict. We won't be drawing him into the drama, but it is pretty telling about BM that her own brother (a prominent member of his community for professional and charitable reasons) would be so willing to step into the fray.
Stay tuned...