Slept on the couch again

I brought home flowers and my wifes favorite candy yesterday. It was my night to cook so I made everyone dinner and sent her kids upstairs to eat and I asked her to talk to me. She had a lot to say and I made sure to 'hear' her like you guys said. She thinks my kids are snots, lazy and leave stuff every where and she is tired of it. I think they act like normal kids and to me shoes in the living room and bookbags by the door aren't a big deal but it bothers her. So we sat down and made a list of house rules and consequences which we agreed to dole out to our own kids if said kid chooses to ignore the first and second request. She seemed happier and more upbeat. I did dishes while she sat and talked to me about her day. When I went into the living room my oldest sd had left her book bag and shoes by the door so I called her to come get them and she said okay. She didn't. 5 minutes later I called her again and told her to come get them now and she said she was coming. 10 minutes later I told my wife who witnessed both attempts to get her kid to pick her stuff up to go ahead and punish her according to our chart and she got pissed off and said I was picking on her kid to get back at her for being mad at my kids. She went into our bedroom and slammed the door. I don't get why she is mad. She spent 15 minutes telling me how she hated it when my kids left stuff laying around the family room and how she hates the clutter but she gets mad when I follow the rules and try to make sd pick her stuff up. I'm lost.

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Couple of questions for you

Couple of questions for you that will help to better understand the situation-

Is there a difference in the way your kids are versus hers currently? Do her kids have chores and yours don't, do her kids mostly pick up after themselves and yours don't, do her kids have rules regarding bedtimes, video games, homework, etc and yours don't? What is the extent of the difference in parenting style? Do you discipline each other's kids or is it left to the actual parent? Who takes the kids to school, practices, etc? And as a refresher, what are the ages/sexes of all the kids?

She has 2 girls who I think

She has 2 girls who I think are 11 and 13, maybe 11 and 12. I have 3 kids, 2 boys 14, 15 and one girl 14, no not twins. I see my kids every other weekend and I take them to dinner every Wednesday night and I go to their sports games. She has her kids full time. We are both laid back and kids being kids don't bother me. I don't tolerate rudeness and I demand respect.

how do you not know how old

how do you not know how old her kids are?
Do you do stuff with her kids? Do her kids feel left out that they don't get to go out to eat once a week?

TBH: my exDH didn't know our

TBH: my exDH didn't know our BS's birthday either. His own kid & he attended the birth ... "Uhm, it's 12/1? Or 12/3? Or uhm, maybe ..."

Recently he knows DOB & age, but BS is now 15 ...

SO has to do the math for SD31's age & limited instant age-awareness of SGD/SGS's ages

I understand not knowing the

I understand not knowing the correct birthdays but to not know how old the kids are? That seems weird to me.

To be perfectly honest I

To be perfectly honest I regularly screw up both my bride's and my Skid's birthdays, my dad's birthday, and even our anniversary.

We were married on the 30th yet in my head our anniversary is the 31st. My dads B-day is on the 31st. My son's B-day is on the 5th and my wife's is the 24th and in my mind I think the kid's is the 4th and my brides is the 25th. Our anniversary, the kids birthday, my brides birthday, and my dad's birthday are all within 32 days of each other. Only now..... nearly 23 years since we married am I reasonably consistently getting all of the dates straight. But I still have to think about it.

Maybe it's a man thing. :?

Nope.. I can't remember my

Nope.. I can't remember my DH's and my anniversary and still mess up his older girl's day. it's february first or 2nd.. I can't remember lol.

You don't know how old her

You don't know how old her kids are? No one wonder your wife feels bad....she feels like an afterthought.

I know the youngest is 11 and

I know the youngest is 11 and I think the older one is 12 but she says she is a teen so maybe she is 13. I'm not sure.

I don't know where my post

I don't know where my post went. Is their a delay?

That must have been very

That must have been very unpleasant to live through. I really can't explain her actions but I can assure you that we have seen it a million times here where a parent complains about someone else's kid but suddenly the rules change for their own. My dh is a wonderful person but he can be aghast at some other kid/parent dynamic he sees never realizing his own is the very worst. I do not have kids of my own so these are third party people he complains about and I am there biting my tongue and rolling my eyes.

lol. This has happened to me

lol.

This has happened to me so many, many times. Like you, I have no kids. Most recently, though, DH was complaining about how my little niece and nephews were on our family vacation over spring break. These kids are all 8 and under...and they really adore each other and love getting together. They play sweetly without any fighting at all...and to me it's a joy to watch them being together and being close. They aren't perfect kids...they can get rowdy and misbehave, but not without correction. My 3-year-old nephew is in this phase where he says: "I hate you!" if you tell him no or don't do what he wants, but no one is letting that slide. Mostly, they just act like sweet, cute, playful kids. But DH went on and on about how they just ate when they felt like it and ran around the cabin and weren't put to bed but just allowed to crash all together on a big King bed and pull-out couch when they were good & ready.

The thing is, we were on the third floor away from the kids...who had a room and a level all to themselves so they could play. We were either working a puzzle on the third floor or drinking, playing games, and hanging out with the adults on the first floor. So these kids didn't effect him or his enjoyment at all...but he felt the need to comment and complain. However, I distinctly remember HOURS of vacation driving where his kids, who were much older than these children at the time, were fighting, hitting each other, pinching, scratching and slapping each other...with very little correction from him. And I'm not the only one who noticed it. HIS mom and sister asked me why these kids fought so much and why they weren't corrected. I had no idea. They were just mean and nasty to each other in general...when they weren't literally hitting each other, they were making fun of each other and cutting each other down. This was mostly led by OSD, who sort of set the tone for the other two. Even with all this, I thought they were mostly good kids, except for OSD...and they grew out of it and are very close and good to each other now. They also would go to bed at all hours at our house, keeping the TV on very loud or talking very loud. If I said anything...they were "just kids" and "just excited" about being here. Yeah.

So...yes. A lot of biting my tongue when DH started in on my niece and nephews who didn't impact him at all and were 10000% better behaved than his kids were even up into early high school. I mean...what 16-year-old girl is still hitting and scratching her younger siblings over the front seat or some other nonsense?

"I mean...what 16-year-old

"I mean...what 16-year-old girl is still hitting and scratching her younger siblings over the front seat or some other nonsense?" Uuuuuh, that would be mine. *Insert eyeroll* It was hideous. And there was so much more.

But being in airport DH could get disgusted over some stranger's kid who did this or that, always much milder than his own daughter. Not affecting him, not associated with me, just random.

Before we met he was in a parents' group that he was asked to leave. The letter read "the behavior of your child..." basically not welcome in their group. DH always thought they were kicking out his autistic son. But I'm convinced it was the neurotypical girl. Everywhere we go people love SS. SD gets in trouble everywhere she goes. But dh cannot do the math.

lol. My OSD was coddled her

lol.

My OSD was coddled her entire life by everyone because "well, that's just OSD" or "OSD just likes things a certain way." This created an entitled monster who was just pure evil for forever...especially to her siblings. It also made her totally helpless and unable to speak like a normal person or do things for herself. Once, after a vacation, we were getting snacks for the plane and OSD stood there in the Target aisle with her hand stretched out saying: "Gummies. Gummies. Gummies. Gummies." Over and over again while pointing. This may be the only time I ever snapped at her. Told her to use complete sentences to ask for things like a normal person. She was FOURTEEN at the time.

Mostly, I kept my mouth shut, because she was the sheltered, favored, golden child...but the other two were so much better. The really gross thing was...this daughter treated my DH JUST like his ex-wife...condescending, sneering, mean, mean, mean. He divorced his ex-wife over it...but doubled down on his love and support for the mini-me version.

^^^^ Same same same.

Yeah. It does kind of come

Yeah. It does kind of come across like you just wanted to punish her for coming up with rules for the household...by picking on her kid.

You should sit down at a time when ALL kids are there and tell them the new rules, then start implementing...rather than starting right away, with no notice...at a time when, I assume, your kids aren't even there.

She said starting now this is

She said starting now this is what we are going to do and I agreed. I wasn't picking on sd. My wife just got done saying how rude and disrespectful it is to have stuff laid around the house and my kids ignore her when she asks them to pick it up. I asked her daughter twice like we agreed so how is that picking on her?

I don't think you were

I don't think you were picking on her. You were trying to get the stuff out of the hall because dw said it bothers her and you were using the agreed upon procedure.

Your wife is on edge for some reason and you may not have gotten to the bottom of it yet.

Your visitation schedule is fairly light but it is a lot of kids.

Your comment that you don't mind "kids being kids" is interesting. I wonder what that entails.

Hmmm. Yeah...I'm interested

Hmmm.

Yeah...I'm interested in the kids being kids thing, too. 14 and 15 aren't really "kids" anymore...they are young adults who need to start pitching in around the house and treating others with respect.

My DH would often say "they're just kids" about his 15, 16 year old children. It's strangely infantalizing. How long will these kids be kids to you? When will you start expecting them to be responsible for their own messes?

**Edited to add: Really, OP? You can't see how your actions could be read as an "in your face" kind of response to the situation. Why are YOU telling SD to pick up her stuff? Why isn't your wife doing so? In your post, you said that you each agreed to set these expectations for your OWN kids. Not each others. So why break that immediately? Or did I misunderstand? And, again, why not wait until ALL kids are present, explain the expectations and the consequences...and then go from there, after ALL kids have had a chance to process the new rules? Starting this unilaterally when ONLY her kids are there does feel unfair. I think there's way more going on here and more work and communication to do.

Her complaint was his kids

Her complaint was his kids don't listen to her when SHE tells them to pick up something. So it seems the norm in their house to cross parent. Also, it is absolutely not fair of her to complain about that then get mad at HIM when her kid does exactly the same to him.

I don't think there's any need for a big meeting with kids telling all that from now on you need to do what we ask. They should know that already. Also, in my experience these big talks become an exercise in bullsh*ttery. In the words of Yoda, there is only "do."

I may be wrong about that, you may be right but clearly there is room to disagree and they agreed on a certain way for their home. Nothing wrong with that. But it was wrong for the dw to immediately change the rules for her kid.

Sorry. Still comes across

Sorry. Still comes across like a 'gotcha' to me...and not like someone who is trying to make this work out.

I could see how it might come

I could see how it might come across that way. But I can see the other way, too.

I think he is trying, though. He's made several tangible efforts, including the therapy appointment. So I think he is sincerely trying to work this out.

Well...that's a fair point. I

Well...that's a fair point. I just think it's better to start when all kids are there so it doesn't come across as unfair. There's really no way to know HOW he asked his SD or approached it with his wife...but the way it's written comes off as a bit snide to me. I could be misreading, of course.

And, of course, the wife could just be awful, greedy, and entitled as many posters have said...but I wouldn't default to that. Steplife is really hard and it's worse for stepmoms than stepdads, by and large...in ways this poster probably can't even begin to understand. So I wouldn't just assume she's totally unreasonable and terrible. I do think the counseling is a good idea.

Completely agree -- no

Completely agree -- no defaulting to the woman is terrible. We know very little about her and he seems generally happy with her. You make an excellent point that it is harder for sms in ways he cannot currently comprehend. I think they have to work on being more open and supportive with each other. That can be really, really hard in steplife and that is the moment they are experiencing.

Good point. My brother and I

Good point. My brother and I are only 16 months apart. I suppose it wouldn't have been too hard to shave 4 months off that.

And there is lies the rub.

And there is lies the rub. The BioParent rose colored glasses to ignore their own spawn's crap while the exact same behaviors perpetrated by Skids stand out like a sore thumb.

Time to nail DW's ass to the wall for this one.

DW is the problem. Not the kids. That is now abundantly clear I think.

Stick to the rules and consequences and bare DW's ass for her rose colored glasses crap.

Lather, rinse, adjust, repeat.

eh. That MAY be true, but I

eh.

That MAY be true, but I don't think that it's "abundantly clear" from this post. We're seeing one side...and even in this version, the OP comes across as a bit of a jerk to me.

Agree with Rosular above. Parent your own kids only, make sure they are following the rules, hold them to the same standards and make them eat the same stuff and have chores. If the problem persists...talk to your wife again. Try to get to the bottom of it. She may be totally wrong and have unfair expectations of you...but you won't know until you deal with the legitimate concerns and try to get on the same page.

Huh? Are you speaking to me,

Huh? Are you speaking to me, specifically? Have you read every comment I've ever made or followed me exclusively here? If you have, then you'll know that I frequently challenge posters to try to see things from their spouse's POV. In fact, later in this very post I tell a commenter that we shouldn't assume the worst about this OP, just because his writing comes off a bit snippy and childish. We shouldn't just assume he's being purposefully passive aggressive and snide but give him the benefit of the doubt. Even in the comment that you are responding to I say that the wife MAY BE totally wrong and just a bad person...but that it's impossible to know at this point...BEFORE you've taken her concerns seriously and attempted to be a unified team with her.

But because I ALSO say that we shouldn't assume the worst about his wife, I think that men are less than women? OK. That makes sense.

Good on you for

Good on you for talking...repeats from above:

* If new rules are implemented then this needs to be discussed with ALL people in house - including the kids. They need to know the rules before any actions happen. It's really not fair otherwise.

* So IF the above was done, and DW didn't follow through, is there an alternative plan? If none of the kids follow the rules and either you or DW don't follow through with the discipline/anti-action, then what? (Hint, it may involve things going away into the garage, onto the deck or into a closet with zero verbal notice).

* Did you discuss what you can/can't live with as individuals? She doesn't like clutter in living spaces - I don't either. I make sure they are clear of stuff and if anyone leaves anything out then only I get to decide. I don't ask or nag or complain, I just remove items as I deem appropriate. And I always make sure MY things (if I had kids, it would also include their stuff) are appropriately put away with the same "rules."

* It seems that your reaction was combative. Like you had a point to prove...did it just happen or did you two discuss the situation first and how to apply the rules you just made? Proving points is not the object - the object is to get the kids responsible for their own stuff and helping the househould.

* And I HATE HATE it when my DH says things like "they are just kids" or "they shouldn't have to do that" or "they don't know any better." EXCUSES. If there is someone in the house who is bothered by it, listen to them and know that they, an adult, have a legitimate reason for saying it. Being dismissive of someone else's needs is really undercutting. DH doesn't think the kitchen needs to be as clean as I like it- but then again, he doesn't cook as much and doesn't care about cross-contamination or having room in the sink to make a meal. So I have to tell him why it bothers me (often). Ask your DW why she wants thing in the living room cleaned up. Maybe those shoes are tripped over (done that), dirty, smelly, the backpacks are in the way and cleaning the floor is an issue or maybe they are just in a big pile in her line of sight and it's just plain messy. All legit. How in the world are the "kids" supposed to learn how to take care of things and care about other people's homes? How good a room mate are they going to be? Do they consider others before making a mess? This is learned. As kids.

lol. Favorite undercutting

lol.

Favorite undercutting statement EVER from my DH.

I made a favorite meal (Chicken Pot Pie) and made two because we were having a couple over as dinner guests. The first was gone and I offered seconds...went into the kitchen and the ENTIRE top crust was picked off of the second pot pie. Disgusting behavior...truly appalling. I complained to DH about it after our guests had left. His response: "You didn't tell her not to, did you?" Um. The kid is FIFTEEN. Shouldn't she know better?!

Oh FFS is right! Sounds like

Oh FFS is right! Sounds like someone doesn't want to find fault in their little darlings! C'mon.....

I remember that post. I would

I remember that post.

I would have been furious and not spared anyone any discomfort in witnessing my fury.

You know what I say to kids

You know what I say to kids (and dhs too) who play me like that? "OK, no girls allowed in this house ever at any time on any day."

I think that they dynamic of

I think that they dynamic of her kids being there all the time turns your children's visitation into a more "interloper" status in the home. When they are there, the extra shoes, bags mess gets to her. She is used to a certain level with her own kids but when you add 3 more it becomes a lot less bearable.

Having 3 more people in the house may make her uncomfortable as well since they aren't HER kids. Don't get me wrong, that is HER issue that she needs to resolve within herself. Of course it is natural for a person to have less patience with other people's children but she needs to try to be more empathetic with both your kid's and your situations.

You don't get to see your kids as much as her. Your kids have to switch up households. That is a tougher situation than what she has to deal with which is a little extra clutter etc...

I think that the first step of coming up with rules was good. You probably need to go back to her and regroup though. You can say that you are sorry that she feels like you are picking on her child. However, if she could understand that men can be just a little more literal. When you both came up with the rules, you figure you would apply them and do it right now because that was what you both decided upon. However, she can't expect your kids to be the only ones to adhere to the rules. If she wants to reset now and have a family meeting the next time the kids are all over and go over rules then, you are open to that too. It might be necessary to go to more of a mode where each parent deals with the "child harassment" too. You say she was there both times. I might have been more likely to say.. "ahem" and pointedly look at the bag by the door. When she gives you the "what" look, you say.. "rules.. we decided on rules".. and go on forward.

I think in her eyes too, one bag by the door isn't a huge deal, but three more and some shoes.. .yeah, that's gets overwhelming to her.

Again, a lot of it stems from the fact that your kids aren't the normal residents so it rankles her more. I think the fact that she perceives you paying out more for your kids than she thinks you should probably feeds into her resentment, but she is unlikely to admit that and in the end, it is your choice right? You say it's "our money" but you are making decisions with it that she doesn't like.. so she may not feel it really IS "ours".

I think you have to have some bottom line things to say to her regarding your kids. Unless they are complete brats and hissing "I hate you" behind her back, she has to understand that you love your kids and they WILL be part of your life and at times your household. Just like some things about your kids bother HER, some things about HER kids bug you. It's natural and if she could step back and understand that and have some empathy for your kids, that would go a long way to maybe making her more tolerant. You don't hate her kids at all and hope that if your kids are doing something to bother her, that she can feel free to come to you with it.

It might be better if each of you leaves the discipline to each bio parent. If a non-bio parent sees a need for correction, they go to the bio parent to discuss and the bio parent deals with it.

Of course, you SHOULD be able to tell the kids to pick up their stuff. I could say it to my steps.. it wasn't a big deal.

I'll just address this once

I'll just address this once more. The wife witnessed him asking the girl to pick up her stuff. She could have intervened and spoken directly to the girl to make sure she complied or she could have stopped her dh and asked him to hold off until they'd had a chance to speak with all the kids about a "new" rule. (Do what adults ask you to is "new?")

She did neither. So to me having a big meeting with the kids is a complete non issue. DW had at least 2 opportunities to address that in different ways and she did not.

Gunner, I have some advice

Gunner, I have some advice for you as a step mother and bio mother. I love my husband to distraction. He is my soul mate. There is very little I would not do for him. Having said that let me be very frank with you. Before he gets to parent my daughter and our daughter (we have an ours) I want him to parent his son. I am going to strongly state that your wife feels exactly the same as I do. Before you go looking to parent her children, parent your own in the manner she is asking.

This does not make the scenario you explained fair but I can almost guarantee you she feels like I do. I have a straight A's 9 year old who has impeccable manners but is reaching tweendom. She is an super athlete, eats what ever she is given, works hard to keep to our house rules and is an over all good kind BUT she is becoming a tween. My husbands son is barely at Gr1 level at the age of 8. Every excuse in the book has been used about him. My husband until very recently has not parented his son in the same manner he wishes to parent the girls. This is unacceptable to me. When he can parent ALL the children the same, then I am happy for him to have free reign.

See where I am going with this? You admit your son isn't doing well in a subject but all I read was poor excuses. If my daughter lets a subject slide or has problems with a teacher I am all over her like a bad rash. I work with her. I get her in to what she needs. I do not make excuses and she will do the work. Why? I have an end goal for my daughters to launch. Your wife is seeing her side and not yours. It doesn't make her right but I can see her perspective on this.

^^Yes. This.^^ You hit the

^^Yes. This.^^

You hit the nail on the head...this is what I was trying to express somewhat less eloquently. Her issue is with YOUR kids. By "parenting" HER child and applying the rules to your SD BEFORE you had a chance to show your wife that you mean to treat her concerns as reasonable and legitimate...it comes across as a 'gotcha' rather than someone who's 'just trying to do what we agreed to.'

Hopefully this makes sense.

I really hope she joins

I really hope she joins steptalk and tells us this scene from her perspective. Would be so interesting.

I agree that there is way more going on here. I don't want to assume 100% that the OP knows what he's doing and is being an a-hole on purpose...but, honestly, it doesn't matter if it's on purpose or not. How it's perceived is what matters, and I will say 100% that "a-hole" is how he's coming across to his wife...and I can understand why.

There was an immediate

There was an immediate reaction because sd had left her stuff out and my wife had just spent 15 minutes telling me how angry it makes her to see bags thrown around and shoes left out. If it were my child that did what sd did she would have stood there while I punished mine but she didn't want hers punished.

Girl crush on Monchichi!

Back at you Aniki

"my 9th grader has straights

"my 9th grader has straights A's almost 100's in all of his classes except math. In math they are learning coordinate Algebra with no book, his teacher is a second year teacher and he does tutoring 6 times a week. 1/2 before school 3 days a week and 1/2 hour after school a week. He is still failing and it isn't lack of trying. I work with him as does his mom. .... I am youtubing with ds every night trying to find out what he is doing. We bought books off amazon and his teacher won't give us page numbers because he skips around and don't worry, they will have books next year."

How is this letting a class "slide?" Seems to me like the boy and both his parents are trying very, very hard. How much harder can the boy study? Everything else is an A, I think the boy is a good student. The boy is tutoring every day before and after school, he's you-tubing with his dad, buying extra texts, parents meeting with teacher. Doesn't sound like a slackoff to me.

We aren't letting anything

We aren't letting anything slide. He has almost 100's in every class and he does tutoring 6 times a week, 3 before school and 3 after. We are in constant contact with his, in my opinion horrible teacher who has no idea what he is doing, we you tube and i have 3 books I bought from Amazon to work with him. I have taken all 3 books to the school and asked the teacher for 45 minutes to show me what will be on the test and the man couldn't do it. The class average on the last test was 60. That tells you something.

Yes. I do not believe you,

Yes. I do not believe you, your boy, or your ex wife are letting this slide. You are all working very hard to improve this grade.

I know every situation is

I know every situation is different and I may be wrong to reach this far in. But your wife doesn't want the rules to apply to her kids. Just yours it seams. Again, what is good for her kids isn't good for yours.

I wish I knew her side of the story really. But the way you paint her isn't that great. My exSM was like that, granted she was an extreme case that most "evil SM's" will never get to.

I agree with those who say parent your own children. BUT tell your wife about this. She is not to parent your kids and you are not to parent hers. If she doesn't like clutter then you ask your kids to clean up their stuff as she should ask her kids to do the same. This is when you will see the real monster rear its head, so to speak. If you are following the rules and getting your kids to do the same, but she isn't then you know this was never the issue. Its the presence of your children that bother her.

I still think its a crockpot of bullS*#(T that she is ok with you paying for her kids to live well and help with their school tuition but doesn't want to include your kids on the vacation and gets mad if you provide the same way of life for your kids.

I would be tempted to say, hey if you don't want me to provide Extra for BM's house lets move my kids to our place. Watch her jump off that wagon real quick. Hell I would. If BM benefits from the CS my SO gives for his kid and any extras am good with that as long as I get my free SKID time. But I am a childless SM, Who brings more financially to the table than SO, so if there is something I don't like I can always WALK AWAY. Seams your wife doesn't want to lose the perks but wants to lose the SKIDS.

I am surprised with some of

I am surprised with some of the responses. She complains about the clutter so I try to fix it but I am wrong because it was her kids clutter. So my kids are wrong but hers are fine because I shouldn't point it out because, I am being passive aggressive. If it were my kids she would have demanded they get punished like we agreed. Her kids are no more special then mine and I won't have my kids treated differently. I see her thinking now so I think I will take the advice of we just tell each other from now on and each handle our own kids. I'm not going to be a butt to my wife but if she is going to complain that my kids leave clutter and get so upset about it then her kids need to pick their bags up to.

I absolutely agree.

Here's a hint, Gunner. There

Here's a hint, Gunner. There is clearly room to disagree on the set of facts you have presented us. It is also true some people at ST like to lunch on newcomers. The delete button is your friend. Of course, we always urge you to consider opinions different from your own. But some people at ST you will find just do not resonate with you.

I think what is shitty is

I think what is shitty is that his wife said: I can't stand when your kids leave shit out.

Ok got it, you can't stand when clutter is left out, bags and books and shoes and what not. GOT IT.

Hey, wife, your kid just left out their bag, I know you can't stand it so I will do exactly what we agreed on.

wife gets pissed off because husband does what they agreed on, but to her kids. You see the issue here. It bothers her only if his kids do it. I don't think the clutter is the issue here. Its his kids period.

I agree too. If you do it

I agree too.

If you do it you are a passive aggressive prick if she does it she is just doing what was said.

She was pissed that she went on and on about your kids not listening and leaving their shit around, and it was literally proven to her right then and there that her kids don't listen to you right away and leave their shit out just the same.

You should have just told her instead of calling her kid out and said hey, I know you hate clutter, can you ask your child to pick up their stuff. I bet she still would have gotten mad and said you picked on her kids. but that is besides the point now.

You parent yours and let her parent hers.

I see your point! And I can

I see your point! And I can also see where it looks spiteful. Some men and women will do that. Some are more literal. My SO is this way. If I where to say I want these rules to be enforced in our home. He will enforce them right then and there to all the kids(my nieces and nephews and his daughter) not out of spite. We've had this discussion before as well so we just agreed that if SD does something that breaks the rules I will tell HIM in private and he will address it right away, if my niece or nephew do it he comes to me to address it.

BUT I can also see based on his prior threads where had it been the other way around, and it was his kid who was first to be called on the the rule, she would have been all for it. Lets not pretend there aren't women out there who are like this.

I should add: At this point

I should add: At this point we will never know how it would have turned out had it been his kid to do it. That is why I say he should parent his and let her parent hers. If the pattern goes where he is correcting his kids on the rules and she isn't then you see what the real issue was. HIS KIDS.

I think you may be on to

I think you may be on to something. I feel he probably is more literal in his thinking as exhibited in some of his writing here. Nothing wrong with that.

His wife, however, is much more indirect. That is its own style.

It just happens to make for crossed wires when these two types get together. She is not being direct about what she really wants but he is taking her as if she were literal. Therefore both parties are hurt and frustrated.

Yes! I honestly think his

Yes!

I honestly think his wife needs to be honest and direct. As selfish as it may make her. At this point I honestly think she doesn't like his kids being around, likes the perks of the marriage and what he provides for her kids and if she was honest she would say: I want you to provide for me and mine but not for yours.

I may be reaching and it may be me projecting based on experience but that is how I see it.

I had to learn how to be direct with SO. I was pretty indirect as well. But with someone who is indirect and someone who is literal, one has to cave. I feel its easier for the indirect person to figure out exactly what he/she wants and say it, than a literal person trying to figure out how to read between the lines.

I think that is what they are

I think that is what they are saying, but I can see where it may come off as snarky on his part to do it right away.

How much you wanna bet if he had waited for her to enforce the rules on his kids and then he enforced it on hers, they will still be saying he did it as retribution and wife would still be pissed.

OK. If that's how you see

OK.

If that's how you see the incredibly balanced, fair, reasonable advice you've been given...then great. You're on your own. Sort it out yourself and don't ever try to see your role in any of it. Good luck.

How was it not? Just because

How was it not? Just because you see it differently? I am explaining to him how this probably came across to his wife...which I think was the question he asked, right? I did point out to another poster that there's no way to know that he's "doing it on purpose" to be passive-aggressive, and we shouldn't assume that is the case. I truly believe that and think it's a reasonable balance to strike. However, he did ask what he did wrong, and many posters explained how she **might** be feeling about this.

Because I am ALSO not willing to automatically assume that his wife is greedy, entitled, or horrible...but that there *might* be more going on there...my advice isn't balanced? Um...OK. To me, that is the very definition of balanced. Giving BOTH parties the benefit of the doubt.

TO me, it seems like you, Brick, and Disney are the ones with the unbalanced double-standards here.

Gunner, I hope you don't make

Gunner, I hope you don't make the mistake of leaving everything to your wife you die. If you do, your kids will not see one cent of what you leave behind, but your stepkids sure as hell will.

If your wife is acting like this toward your kids now, can you imagine what will happen if you die and everything goes to her?

You need to find the male version of steptalk ASAP.

Gunner, from what I have seen

Gunner, from what I have seen of your posts you really should watch this vid on the differences between communication and thinking between men and women. I have a feeling you are focusing on the things in the "vacation" box or the "clutter" box or the "kids" box. For your wife each issue is connected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XjUFYxSxDk

You also sound similar to my DH. I say there's a problem with x, and he says ok, and goes off to fix x. It doesn't matter if x was an immediate problem or a future one, it gets fixed NOW. And sometimes it drives me insane that he doesn't take at least a little time before jumping in. If your situation had been me and DH, how I reacted would have been different depending on where in our relationship it happened. In the first couple of years I probably would have reacted exactly as your wife did. You just finished the new house rules and without taking a moment to let it sink in and adjust the household atmosphere jumped in to dealing with an issue the new way on her daughter instead of your own kids. I would have seen your actions as passive-aggressive and angry also. Nowadays, with a better understanding of the way my DH's brain works, I'd be able to cut back the irritation and see the action as an attempt to fix.

What you really need to do, imho, is a self-evaluation. Were you going after your SD's clutter out of anger, a desire to 'punish' your wife, a defensiveness in feeling an inequality in the household (real or perceived)? Or was it a genuine act of attempting to enforce your wife's rules out of love. You don't have to post the honest answer here. Do some soul-searching. If you can't be honest with yourself about your motivations, no one else will ever trust your actions.

THANK YOU. Gunner. Please

THANK YOU.

Gunner. Please read and understand this. Sue can come off a little gruff sometimes, and I take issue that you "mean" to be doing this to your wife -- but this IS what you're doing and, more importantly, the message that you are sending her.

If my husband did this exact thing, I would also be upset, just like your wife.

Again, I don't have kids...so my situation and family dynamic is different, but there are some universals at play here, and I have felt similarly toward my husband as I believe your wife is feeling toward you right now. For example, more than once earlier in our marriage, I would go to my DH to discuss some behavior or another that involved his kids. Typically, he insisted on "fixing" it fairly harshly and abruptly, milliseconds after our discussion...so, of course, the kids knew I was the one who brought it up. My DH is naturally a step-to-the-problem, go-getter personality. So, maybe in his mind he truly believed that he was just "solving" the problem...but to me it always came across like he was going overboard on purpose in order to passive aggressively make me feel bad/guilty or too afraid to bring up issues in the future...or like he was throwing me under the bus somehow. What I meant was that I wanted HIM to deal with the issue with his kids over time...parenting them and taking the time to truly correct the problem long-term...and maybe even NOTICE these issues himself once in a while rather than always waiting for me to point them out. Maybe, I was even asking for a little understanding from him about how I felt and what my role was in the home...and why that might make me less than happy. What I got instead, to me, felt like he was just trying to shut me up and prove a point. He may have technically been "fixing" the problem...but he wasn't very understanding or loving about it. That's really not cool, and if he hadn't changed, I wouldn't still be with him.

Sue's not ignoring that fact

Sue's not ignoring that fact at all...that's not what's going on here. The way I read it...what I'm seeing here. Gunner's wife is the main one who declutters and cleans up messes around the house. Gunner has said that these messes don't really bother him, and he thinks that "kids will be kids." What I took from that is that he rarely if ever disciplines or asks the kids (his OR hers) to clean up after themselves.

His wife, on the other hand, is staying on top of the mess and has different expectations for how the house will run. She asks her kids AND his kids to clean up after themselves. Perhaps her kids listen to her, probably not all the time because kids just don't always listen, but a good percentage...because she's their mom and they're used to her giving them rules. However, WHEN they don't listen, she feels free to dole out consequences. But his kids do not listen to her...because they aren't used to rules at dad's house, they aren't there all the time, and she is NOT their mom. Gunner doesn't seem to step in and make them listen to her, respect her, or do as she requests (and it sounds like her requests are perfectly reasonable...3-5 backpacks and pairs of shoes cluttering up the entryway would really bug me, too). She does NOT feel free to give consequences when his kids don't listen like she can with her own...and so the resentment grows. She feels that she's stuck as the one responsible for keeping the home nice, or at least the one who cares about keeping it nice, but she doesn't have the authority to make it happen. Responsibility without authority never feels good for anyone. It feels a little like being a slave.

Her husband just doesn't seem to get it or understand why it bothers her so much. But then, one evening, as if by magic, he shows up with flowers and cooks dinner...and ASKS her to share her experiences with him. Promises to really listen. So she opens up and tells him about how she's feeling in her own home. She's feeling unimportant...not listened to...disrespected. The low man on the totem pole. Maybe she gives the backpack and shoes as ONE illustration or example of what she's talking about...something tangible that he can really grasp. Trust me...this is just one example meant to help you understand her, Gunner, not the main issue. This is a time when she wanted to set some expectations for how things would run in this house, and you didn't back her up...instead, you said "kids will be kids" and completely undercut her. Gunner says to her...OK, let's fix it. And they come up with some general household rules together. She feels happy and good...like an adult in her own home again. They talk, she washes dishes. Wonderful.

But, somehow, afterwards ALL that Gunner held onto out of that whole conversation was the thing about the clutter. Maybe that's because he's more literal in his thinking...or maybe it's something deeper and more sinister. Maybe he actually DOESN'T like to allow his wife to be an equal in her home. Maybe he DOESN'T think she is deserving of respect from his children. Only Gunner really knows what's in his heart and mind here. I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and to assume that he really does want some genuine insight into what happened.

So, because he held onto the thing about the clutter but nothing else...he immediately "tests out" their new policy on her kids...after rarely if EVER asking any of the kids to do things around the house. In this situation, I am not surprised that the kid didn't listen. She's not used to her stepdad asking her to do stuff, and she's probably noticed that he really doesn't care about the mess so much...she's used to her mom asking her and caring about the mess. Because she doesn't respond in a reasonable time frame, Gunner now wants his wife to punish her. Again, the FIRST TIME he's ever asked her kids to do something in the house and they've ignored him...without first telling ALL kids that they are going to be running a tighter ship and keeping the place clean...and that BOTH adults are going to be making requests and are to respected...he wants the punishment dutifully doled out. Meanwhile, his wife has been ignored and disrespected by HIS kids for...months? Years? Without any support or consequences.

Can you really not see how this comes across to her? Can you really see no way that Gunner AND his wife could have handled this better? This isn't a matter of her thinking that HER children are above consequences and HIS need to be punished. That's not what it's about at all...it's not about the kids or the punishment or "what's fair." If anything, this scenario was unfair to her children, as they were the ones who were there while his were not, and they were the ones set up for failure. But, again, that's not what it's about. It's about Gunner's wife needing to feel like she has a place and some authority in her own home...like she's a grown-up. Instead of hearing that from her, Gunner just once again proved that his way goes...and that he doesn't get her at all. No wonder she feels upset and discouraged about all this. If I were her...I wouldn't just feel angry...I'd feel incredibly hurt. I'd feel set-up, and I'd wish that I hadn't opened up to my husband at all just to be shot back down.

I guess what I'm advocating for here is a pinch of empathy...rather than knee-jerk "she just wants you to ignore and abuse your bios while her kids get everything!" responses. If that makes my advice and my comments "mean" or "unbalanced" then so be it. I think it's what any decent marriage counselor will advise Gunner to do...have a little empathy.

You have painted a convincing

You have painted a convincing piture of what might be going on. Gunner might very well read this and have a lightbulb go on over his head.

But if this scenario is accurate, I do have a question. Why did dw not intervene the first time she witnessed him call her daughter? Or the second time? One could make a case she was laying a trap for him, give her another excuse to send him to the couch and harrumph her way in to some other agenda. In that case she would be the sinister one.

But I don't think at all that either of them is sinister. Gunner has made several statements his preferred outcome is both wife and her kids come on vacay with him and that life is generally good from his perspective.

A large number of women on his threads have disagreed about what the dw wants based on the same set of facts. So there is just no way to land on one particular theory and present it as gospel truth.

So far to me it looks like dw has been stuffing her feelings for a long time or has never found an effective way to communicate them to him. He conversely has taken every little word she's said and run with it as best he knows how, perhaps not paying attention to nuance etc or even forgetting half the content. So she's gone covert full of resentment and now he's sleeping on the couch getting resentful himself because he made a good faith effort and doesn't know how he got here.

So that's my theory. It may or may not be right. Yours may be right. But I don't think either of us can know for sure at this point. Some cases are obvious and everybody here agrees. But that simply hasn't happened here so if a bunch of women cannot figure this woman out with any certainty or agreement, I think it's a bit much to expect Gunner to know instantly in the moment either.

I don't think either is

I don't think either is sinister, either...though I think it's JUST AS LIKELY that HE is sinister as it is that SHE is...which is kind of my point. In reality, I think they are simply trying but misunderstanding and talking past each other...and I DEFINITELY think his wife needs to learn better communication skills. However, I can ALSO see how communication would be especially difficult for her if she's felt unheard and un-respected for years, and I don't think Gunner is completely blameless in this situation. I DON'T agree that it's "easier" for the less literal, more emotional communicator to understand the literalist and so it's all on HER to fix this and make it right...as one commentor suggested. I think that kind of thinking is just treating Gunner like a man-child and enabling HIS poor communication skills. Ultimately, he's here for help...and he can only fix him.

In general, I am responding to the posters who are bashing this woman, saying she's evil, manipulative, and greedy...again, all very knee-jerk "ALL stepmoms are evil" kind of thinking...and trying to show that there ARE multiple interpretations. Not saying mine is right...or that Gunner is awful or that his wife is. Just what I see here, reading between the lines and giving both the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. Personally, I think that's the only helpful way to respond...but apparently these responses make me a horrible person somehow (you're not saying this, of course, but others have.)

Been enjoying talking w/you , Chief...even though we see this particular situation a bit differently.

Back at you. And we

Back at you. And we definitely agree heartily there is no evidence this woman is terrible. None at all.

As an aside I will note that for dh and me our first fight and later worst fight were both due to his literalism and my not understanding how literally he takes things and how hard it is for him to "get" things that are obvious to millions of other people. In no way do I think of him as a man-child and thank heaven neither does he think of me as a woman-baby because other things that are easy for him are impossible for me.

On those 2 aforementioned fights I could not for a second consider that he really did not understand what was going on in the moment so I got my feelings deeply hurt. But once he figured that part out (that I was hurt), he made a herculean effort to figure out why. I had to be open to finding out he really didn't get it. As soon as we both could accept that, the fight dissolves away. Because he is NOT my enemy and he was trying very hard, just "clumsy."

Now, I have been in the other position myself. Sometimes I can be too literal with someone and then I am the one who wreaks havoc. So I can see it both ways and, yes, it is more possible for the nuanced one to break it down into blocks of solid info than it is for the literal one to read a language he simply can't.

I have an extreme example in my home, my autistic ss. It's like having one of those Invisible Man models except for the literal mind. I'm not saying my dh or gunner are on the spectrum even an inch. I'm saying an extreme model can help you visualize a process.

So the woman, all things being equal (and I know there are those here who think things not being equal is the problem), it's the woman's responsibility to speak up in extremely plain language about what she needs. Conk him over the head with it till he gets it. If she wants her needs met, she has to do that because her dh is truly puzzled about what her needs are. So obviously--and clearly her original bs about female biology was bad communication we all agree on--she has not found a way to communicate effectively with a partner who is really trying.

His first blog said his wife

His first blog said his wife buys the groceries and pays for some extras.

Strange. I'm really not like

Strange. I'm really not like that at all if you look at my posts. I think many here would stick up for me on that.

SO are you saying that you DON'T think that Disney,Brick, and Lashy just like to hate on stepmoms on here...bash women in general, and always assume the worst about stepmoms, in particular? OK. I also think there are many on here who would back me up on that claim...and who are kind of tired of it.

I'm also not a skid-hater...I'm good to mine. Like really, really good. Not having children of my own is a major point of grief for me...so thanks for throwing that in my face. Even though I "haven't parented" I guarantee that I've been in a position of authority and care for more children than anyone else on this board. No, it's not the same. I am acutely aware of that. But there have also been numerous studies that support the idea that "non-parents" are sometimes even better able to see what's best for a child in a given situation because they have some distance and objectivity...and their egos aren't all wrapped up in the child's behavior. I've actually been able to perform this inside-outside role in my own household quite frequently when DH has been discouraged or frustrated about his kids. I'm the one who reminds them how young they are...how they're still figuring things out...to have some patience.

Abuse is awful and never OK under any circumstances...especially abuse of children. However, I have seen many, many SM's on here claim "my SM was awful and my next SM was awful and the girlfriend following that was awful...and now my skids are awful." And never seem to make the connection. Basically, I'm just getting tired of all the SM bashing on a site that's supposedly for SM's. If I wanted to hear how manipulative and defective and deficient we ALL are, I could go...well, anywhere else in the world for that.

Overall I would say...I am incredibly sorry for what SMofOne lived through, but I don't think my posts should be judged based on ONE case where I joked around inappropriately. SMofOne admits herself that this scenario is NOT typical of stepmoms...which does make me wonder why she's bringing it up repeatedly in response to Gunner's post...casting doubt in his mind over this woman who he claims to love and care for and who, by his own admission, has always been good to him and his kids...planting that seed of suspicion when she knows NOTHING about the situation other than what he's written...and there are hundreds of ways to interpret that. If the "evil SM" isn't at all typical...which I think we can all agree on...why is she coming back again and again on his posts to give him that idea? To me, that seems like some really unhelpful projection...and something that could actually be quite damaging to his marriage. Above all, I am a marriage first person...I've seen that philosophy transform my own household for everyone, including the skids...so it bugs me when people come on here and say, essentially, "Well...maybe she's just greedy, evil, and abusive." Doesn't that seem irresponsible to you? Maybe she also has legitimate concerns or the OP could have handled the situation much more gracefully. To me, it seemed like he was saying...I don't understand what I did wrong...how could I have handled this better? And I was responding to that particular question...without judging him in the process. I don't understand coming back again and again to say...You probably did nothing wrong and your wife is just an abusive shrew!!!! Well...OK. So Gunner doesn't get to learn anything about women and how they tend to think and his marriage gets to stay on the rocks. You go girls!

For what its worth, I have

For what its worth, I have had it pretty easy with SO and SD. But it has taken us a while to get to where we are and the understanding between us how we want our needs met and household ran. That said, I wouldn't do this again. I am a Child Free SM. If SO and I where to go our separate ways. I would not do this again.

Constituency of one! Love it!

When we had the kids at home,

When we had the kids at home, skid was full time with us and my son half time.

My son had chores, expectations and rules, full time skid did not.

Well DH laid out the rules with skid and never enforced them, skid could do anything he wanted and treat people like shit.
My kid who lived with us 50% of the time always did what was asked, of course sometimes when he would clean the kitchen it was not totally up to my standards but there was an effort made. Skid would just leave the whole mess.

I use to complain to DH and he never did anything about it. He would always say "you don't like my kid". Finally when skid broke a rule for the 3rd time, the no drugs in the house rule, I told DH I was no longer willing to live like this. DH told his son to move out. As soon as skid moved, he would nick pick whatever he could find about my son. Like he did not close the pantry door all the way, he did not load the dishwasher properly, etc. DH never complained about him before but as soon as skid moved out it seemed like my kid was under attach for the smallest things.

I felt like he was doing it to get back at me for complaining about his son.

Maybe your wife thinks you were making an example right away with her kid as pay back to her for complaining about your kids?

I think a family meeting should take place with the rules and expectations with you, your wife and all the kids.

I can see how a person could

I can see how a person could see it coming off passive aggressive however the wife needs to grow up and talk to her husband.

I can see why Gunner did what he did, in the same situation I would've wanted to do that too but it would of cause a fight with my spouse which does not resolve the issue, not a sleep on the couch fight.

When my DH was complaining about every little thing with my kid to my, instead of just getting defensive, I would agree to talk to my son about and sometimes I did it in front of DH. After handling it that way for a while DH stopped complaining about my kid. Also it showed DH that I had no problem bring things up to my son unlike him with his.

I stalk and didn't have an

I stalk and didn't have an account until just now but I need to respond to this post.

You've all defended or derided in some fashion, I haven't read every post.

I'm posting in defense of Gunner and how he viewed the situation and as a step mom so this is a woman's point of view.

Gunner, it would have gone down exactly the same way at my house but I'd be you and my DH is your wife. It was just luck of the draw that it was one of her kids first after your talk.

And like you I would have addressed it right away to show I'm on top of things, willing to make this work and to please my spouse. And like your wife my DH would have freaked out that I was picking on them. And I'd stand there wondering how that possibly could have gone wrong. You addressed it, right away, just like you both agreed and in a household where (at least for now) you are both parenting. I get it.

I'm still running into this sometimes and I've mostly disengaged. I can't find a pattern to understand why it's not okay one time but okay another time. I'm guessing it has to do with an insecurity about something for my DH.

If you figure it out, let me know.

How old is your wife? Could

How old is your wife? Could she be hitting menopause?

Is it also possible that she is debating about staying in the marriage (due to something entirely different--like not feeling loved enough or appreciated enough or what-have-you) and she's just nitpicking at everything hoping to fight and cause enough high emotions to be one and done?

I know, once upon a time, when I couldn't make up my mind about breaking up with DH (then boyfriend), I would pick fights with him about every little thing, hoping for a huge blow up so I would have enough of a push to go. I was young, and he was my first boyfriend, but he was patient with me and always tried to talk it out and actually tried to get to the bottom of my feelings instead of dismissing them. In the end, all I really needed was to feel secure in his feelings for me, and once I matured a bit (with a lot of help from him), that never happened again.

So you heard the THINGS (kids leaving things around) but I think you didn't really hear HER, which might be that she doesn't feel respected or appreciated but she doesn't know how to put that in words. She might have felt listened to and respected because you sat down and tried to find a solution to the problems you thought it was superficially, which explains why she was upbeat and seemingly happy, but then when you started pointing the stuff out, it felt like you didn't "get" it so now she's mad again. This is a very real case of women are from venus and men are from mars--speaking completely different languages.

When she said she's "tired of it" you should have asked her what that meant. That little nugget was the entryway in to probe the actual feelings behind it. You might find her anger has much less to do with how the kids treat her, and everything to do with how YOU treat her.

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Slept on the couch again

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