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UPDATE: Court: We just got obliterated

Madam Hedgehog's picture

Update to THIS post: http://www.steptalk.org/node/54596

First, THANK YOU SO MUCH for all the support and suggestions. It really helped me get through this morning without having a panic attack.

Many of you asked about the CO. This is it:

DH gets SS2 and SS5 EOW starting Friday at 630AM until Tuesday at 8AM when he drops SS5 off at school. He also has regular visitation that is somehow recorded as "Right of First Refusal" in the paper work, which means he watches them Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 630AM until 445PM. HOWEVER, DH doesn't get "credit" for these times periods because they are listed under "Right of First Refusal" rather than custody. ???.

So, before I rearranged my schedule to take care of the kids, we were following the above schedule except for the days (and weekends) that BM just didn't want to watch the kids for whatever reason.

However, for the last three months, we have been taking care of SS2 from 630AM until 445PM EVERY SINGLE DAY except every other Saturday and Sunday.

DH has considered the following options:
*Quitting his job
*Willfully becoming "under-employed"
*Ending BM's free ride with a vengeance
*Threatening to send the kids to daycare every day he has them and incurring insane child care costs that she has to split.
*Moving to a country with no extradition with the united states

We have approximately 9 days before they start garnishing his wages.

Any other suggestions?

And how are we supposed to "prove" that we are taking care of the kids if emails and texts are considered "hearsay" and BM is obviously not going to sign anything stating that we have them the majority of the time?

Comments

SerendipitySM's picture

What exactly does "RIGHT OF FIRST REFUSAL" mean? I don't understand how he cannot get credit for the 9 hours a day the children are in your and his care?

SerendipitySM's picture

I just looked it up and here is the definition I found:

The "right of first refusal" is a provision sometimes placed in child custody agreements which requires one of the child's parents, who otherwise would have "timeshare" prior to placing a child into third party care (such as a babysitter) to first grant the child's other parent the right to care for the child during the period of the first parent's absence.

So basically it sounds like you and DH get to be BM's first choice babysitters for free and she gets to take advantage of this ridiculous loophole to get $200.00/month in CS. You poor thing - I have no words other than I am so, so sorry this is happening to you. What did his lawyer have to say>?

Madam Hedgehog's picture

DH doesn't have a lawyer. He uses outside counsel when he can, but he has been representing himself because BM's court theatrics have already cost him about 12,000. We literally cannot afford a lawyer at this point. We are renting a place from my parents at a grossy cheap rate because we couldn't afford rent anymore.

And yes, that's exactly what we are. Free Babysitters. She drops them off with us, and then we pay her for the time that WE TOOK CARE OF THE CHILDREN.

Jsmom's picture

We had ROFR and she is right, they don't consider it because he has the option...It is wrong, hell yes!!!

Madam Hedgehog's picture

Right of First refusal means that she technically has custody of them during this time period, but he gets the first right to take care of them if she can't.

The reason this is idiotic: she has to work from 715AM until 4PM Monday through Friday. There is no way she can take care of them during that time period.

Before Dh rearranged his schedule, she was dropping them both off at the sitter at 6AM and leaving them until 6PM Monday through Friday.

And making DH pay half the cost (which is somehow part of the court order).

I don't understand how he is not getting credit for 9 hours five days a week either. It's incomprehensible to me.

Willow2010's picture

DH has considered the following options:
*Quitting his job
*Willfully becoming "under-employed .
*Moving to a country with no extradition with the united states
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Edit to show the ones I hope your DH is joking about. lol

All of this over $200.00 I get that it is a burden, but wow.

What will happen if he just makes her keep the kids when she is supposed to have them? Will that cut down on your expense much? Your BM is trash at its worse. sorry I have no advice. I am shocked that it wwnt this way.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

The problem is that the kids are 2 and 5. $200 a month for the next twelve years is just unimaginable.

The first year this happened, he took on a second job, but somehow BM managed to take 75% of it because it pushed him into a higher CS bracket when compared to her income.

The judge is actually insisting that we calculate CS by that first year even though DH is now making about 10,000 less per year.

B22S22's picture

so, what you're saying is that if he refuses to have his kids there every day (which he has the right to, right of first refusal just means he has to be offered the opportunity) and the BM has to put them in childcare, there is a stipulation in the CO saying he has to pay part of that also?

Madam Hedgehog's picture

Exactly. He would have to pay 50% of the childcare bill.

Which is what really made me mad. He was paying her CS for Tuesdays and Thursdays, but she was putting them in child care, which he paid half of, so he was paying for the same day TWICE.

SerendipitySM's picture

I am guessing that they are having major financial difficulties and that in their current situation $200.00 might as well be $10,000.

I would stop taking care of the kids for her, but as previously noted - you may be forced to pay half the childcare costs - you are in the worst type of catch 22 my friend. Do you have any friends or family members that are lawyers that could perhaps provide you with some free legal advice?

Madam Hedgehog's picture

I do have a crazy aunt who might help. I have not wanted to get my family involved because they are really overbearing at times. But I think at this point we really don't have many options.

And yes, 200 a month really might as well be 10,000. We literally cannot get rent for any cheaper than we have it now and we are both working full time at the heighest rate we can manage. I have actually put my Master's degree on hold because we can't afford it.

SerendipitySM's picture

Just to be clear - is he being ordered to pay $200.00 a week or $200.00 a month?

Madam Hedgehog's picture

It is 200 a month. I know it doesn't sound that bad, but we are in a horrible position financially. The divorce bankrupted DH because BM decided to file a new divorce petition (after he'd already filed and she sat on his paperwork for three months) on the exact day that he was closing on a house (she knew this). So, basically, he lost his down payment because he couldn't legally be in a binding contract while going through a divorce.

So, he's bankrupt. I had a series of medical issues (no health insurance) and am about to file bankruptcy.

200 dollars a month is not doable for us.

the_stepmonster's picture

Ugh, so frustrating. I guess you could keep taking them to avoid the sitting costs but maybe refuse to send them with a packed lunch? The school will not let them go hungry so they will keep a tab on how much they owe and send them home with a bill eventually. And since BM is responsible for feeding them on her days, she is responsible for that bill. That would save you a little money on lunch and take it out of her pocket. I am determined to help you stick it to this woman so I will keep thinking.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

I like this idea. And she will definitely not remember to pack them lunches. She doesn't feed them breakfast 70% of the time. So, I guess long term it could be beneficial. I know DH will feel uncomfortable with it because it will put SS5 in an odd spot at school, but I'm not sure we can afford to screw around with this anymore.

the_stepmonster's picture

I would also not give them dinner on her nights. Maybe a light snack to hold them over (I certainly don't want you to starve the poor kiddos), but make her feed her own children. Cut out any other extras you guys are buying/doing for them (clothes, shoes, dr. appts, etc.) and make BM responsible for her own children. I don't see how you can get away with not taking them in the mornings and after school without paying for half the childcare costs, but if you cut enough little things she might realize how much she relies on you guys. Ideally, you would have the CS modified so that CS includes childcare costs but considering you guys are tight on money that is probably not feasible at the moment.

I also like the idea of having the school sign something stating that you drop off and pick up SS every day.

majka's picture

Is this $200 on TOP of the CS that he was already paying, or is this the total amount of CS that he has to pay?

It sounds to me that if he is working a second job, and BM is getting to take 75% of that second jobs income, AND it pushes him into a higher bracket, it might not be a good idea for him to have that job.

But of course you know your budget better than us.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

This is exactly what his legal counsel told him today. He needs to stop working so much.

Can you believe this garbage though?

He gets a second job to cope with child support costs and they just use it as an excuse to make him pay her more when she's already making more than him and NEVER TAKES CARE OF THE KIDS.

I don't get it.

200 would be the total. But it is too much or us right now, especially because we are already paying for two kids (the skids).

Additionally, the paperwork has him paying for half of any extras. So, he pays half medical, half hair cuts, half shoes, half jackets, half of whatever the f*ck random thing she wants to spend a hundred dollars on.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

DH is still not sure about what counts as an extra that he actually has to pay for. She keeps hitting him up for shoes and haircuts and medicine and other garbage. But we have been looking at the paperwork and I think that he can get out of most of it, especially if he can provide a cheaper alternative.

BM actually made him pay for two 80 dollar haircuts (for a 1 year old) before we started getting more resistant to her nonsense.

Jsmom's picture

Stop paying for anything....Just give her the CS. You are paying too much and she is taking advantage of your need to make sure the kids are provided for.

SerendipitySM's picture

I agree - do not pay her for anymore extras. If the court order only states that you are reponsible for paying the $200.00 a month in CS costs and does not specify what "extras" are then she cannot legally make you pay her anymore money for whatever frivolous thing she chooses to buy for the kids. She should be using the CS for food, clothing and haircuts anyway. The more I learn of your situatin the more infuruated I become. I wish you the best of luck my friend!!!

Auteur's picture

It's the same way in NYS. Any 2nd job that GG gets is considered fodder for CS. ACtually there is a WHOLE LIST of "income sources" that CS can be obtained from; it's practically endless. . .someone really had to think long and hard to come up with a few obscurities.

And they wonder why NCP biodads work under the table. And in NYS if they get even a whiff of a guy trying to be under-employed, they start imputing income at what he "could" be earning and base it the CS on it.

When all three brats were coming to my house and gobbling up brand name uber expensive junk food that GG demanded they get, plus their 30 minute showers, plus the mountains of laundry, then GG paying $1000 a month to the Behemoth for CS (he makes $15 an hour) thus bringing home $200 a week and then spending THAT on his brats in an orgy of guilty daddy spending EVERY weekend, well let's just say I lost a lot of hair over those years.

I still pay ALL the bills. GG could not afford to live on his own. The children were so PASed by the Behemoth (who works for her county as a CPS worker) and so nasty and disrespectful, that I had to go into self-defense mode and hasten their PAS out by doing a Nanny 911 on their hineys.

He still pays $1000 a month and brings home a pittance, yet treats me very badly (bites the hand that feeds him)

I am extremely frugal to say the least. The only saving grace is that GG can fix cars, houses, etc. so I drive a beater to work that's paid for in cash. Never again will I have a car payment if I can help it.

I so can relate to what you're going through. Hopefully your man is worth it.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

Your situation sounds so familiar. The costs ARE neverending.

Not to mention 80 dollars for soccer.
Not to mention 80 dollars for t-ball.
Not to mention outfits and pictures and gear for both.
Not to mention school supplies.
Not to mention whatever random expensive field trip SS5's school arranges.

Haircuts, doctors visits, medicine, shoes, shoes, more shoes. (I calculated at a few months ago, at this rate DH and BM will spend 600 dollars on shoes this year because BM buys SS5 a pair every month and SS2 a pair every two or three weeks).

The extra work DH took on specifically to recover from CS costs is now screwing us because it just drove the CS up.

How the hell are people supposed to survive this?

I am really sorry your SO is a jackass and doesn't appreciate you more. My DH is very understanding and involves me in everything, but it is still very very hard.

VioletsareBlue's picture

I'm in NM too and it sounds like you had a judge that is nothing like the one we had.
Send me a message and I'll see if I can help.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

The problem here is that the CO states that he has to pay for half of all child care costs. That's part of the reason I am working the bizarre hours I have this semester. We were trying to make sure he didn't have to pay child support AND child care.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

DH really likes this idea. The only problem is that it's written into the paperwork that he HAS to pick them up at 630 every morning, so I guess we would be responsible for finding child care. And then we'd have to pay for 50% if that child care (as per the CO).

I have no idea how DH ended up with 100% of the responsibility and 0% rights. This makes no sense at all to me.

Do you think he could subtract food costs and travel costs from CS then? Or is that a huge no-no?

Madam Hedgehog's picture

It's odd. The CO says he HAS to pick them up, but lists it as ROF as the same time. I'm glad you mentioned that because it is a clear conflict of terms. Maybe we can do something with that.

stormabruin's picture

No, he cannot subtract ANYthing from CS. CS is ordered in an amount to be paid in full & if he doesn't pay in full, he's putting himself in arrears.

Definitely get some guidance on what CS is to cover & what is included in extras he's responsible for. He shouldn't be having to pay any extra for shoes, clothes, haircuts, etc.

If he doesn't have a lawyer he uses, have him set up appointments with a couple of different ones for free consultations. Many lawyers offer this, either in person or by phone. You have an opportunity to explain your situation & most will offer some basic advice. I would think they would at least be willing to explain look at the wording in his order & advise him on what should be considered "extras".

Also, check into Legal Aid. With your incomes being low, you may qualify for free legal assistance.

majka's picture

How interesting! Become a child care licensed individual and charge her! I like the idea of that... she would never go for it of course, BM always find a loophole to screw everyone in their lives over, but clever nontheless!

Rags's picture

Time to REFUSE!!! Let BM take care of them rather than using you as her beck-and-call baby sitter. EOWE ... that is it. Feed them on your time, to not take them at all on her's unless you specifically want them on a FROR day.

She will blow a fuse when she has to figure out how to care for HER children on her CO'd custody time.

You and DH will have no issue caring for them during your time with YOUR children.

I would not send her a sob story letter about being broke or inconvenienced. DH should just tell her "your time, you take care of the kids but do not make the mistake of not offering me FROR as stipulated in the CO." No threats of further action. Let her stew in what you might do. When the opposition is uncertain they have no confidence and that gives you an advantage.

One key to maintianing control and dominance in a blended family situation is to minimize the emotion on your end of the situation. The more you can control the emotion, the more you can stay ready to manage the situation and maintain control

Though you did not get what you were hoping for in court you do have a CO that you can roll in to a tube and beat BM about the head and shoulders with if she so much as thinks about deviating from the CO. (Figuratively of course) The CO is the ultimate tool for the person who knows it most thouroughly. I believe that you will find that BM will most likely never even look at it or read it. So, learn it, live it, love it. Research any Supplemental Rules for the jurisdiciton where your CO is resident. We found Supplemental Rules to be excellent additional tools for inforcing our will on my SS's SpermClan. Over the 17+ years of our CO I am convinced that no one on the SpermClan side ever so much as glanced at the CO much less actually read it. As our control grew we could pretty much dictate anything we wanted and when they bitched our response was "read the CO". Even if what we were stipulating was not in the CO

NCP or CP .... the CO is your best tool. If you know it and use it you can control the opposition. One key is to not deviate from the CO yourself.

So, pay the CS, take YOUR CO'd visitation time with the Skids, and keep tightening the box around BM every opportunity you get.

Eventually you will get her and keep her under control.

As the CP household our story is the opposit of yours. CS was $110/mo for the year before my wife and I met and married. For the next 9yrs CS was $130/mo. Then it went to $800/mo for 2yrs(due to stupid behavior by BioDad) an then down to $385/mo for 6yrs.

We did not need the money but it was a control tool to minimize the toxic influence of the SpermClan on our son.

Though you are the NCP you can use the same control strategies with BM though you will have some different challenges to address than we had. Nail her ass to the wall and keep her exactly in line with the CO.

I would also try HelpMee's suggestion. Charging her day car costs for your ROFR time! That is a classic and definately worth a try. Most CO's order that the parties split the costs of day care that can be correlated to the work hours of the BioParent. So, charge her for any time that BM is at work during your CO'd visitation time and ROFR days. That is a great idea. We shold from now on refer to this strategy as the HelpMeeeee Method.

Our most innovative motion was to include/add the SpermGrandParent's income to the SpermIdiots income for calculation of CS. He claimed to be paying the CS on my SS when we had 10+yrs of CSE records clearly indicating that SpermGrandMa was paying his CS on my SS. He also claimed that his younger three oowl spawn by two more baby mamas lived with him and he was supporting them. In fact they were living with SpermGrandMa and SpermGrandPa and attending school in the SGPs district. We had PI footage and reports showing the kids spent an average of 35+ days a month at the SpermGrandParent's house and rarely had an overnight with their SpermIdiot. We got copys of their school records. He lived rent free in a property owned by the SGPs (he cracked on the stand when we grilled him on how much he paid in rent) and the utilities were in the SGP's name and paid by them and his cars were all given to him by the SGPs and were registered in their names and insured by them.

The Judge liked our innovative approach and allowed the motion to include the SGPs income in the calculation of CS but she ultimately did not actually include it. When Her Honor ruled, I will consider your motion, the SpermClan went ballistic. "What difference does it make who pays for XYZLMNOP as long as it is paid! You can't do that!......." SpermGrandPa just about had a heart attack. }:) }:) }:) }:)

You may try forcing BM to disclose her trust fund and any help she gets from WombGrandMa and WombGrandPa the next time you go back for a CS modification.

Good luck.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

How do we force her to disclose her trust fund. It was in her name until right before the divorce, when she transfered it into her step-dad's name. Since then, he has probably transfered about 30 grand to her out of it.

That is how she is funding this whole courthouse circus.

If we could nail her on that, we'd be saved I think.

But the judges won't even look at her financial information. This CS judge did not even make her provide financial records other than those she submitted four years ago when they originally went through mediation.

Disneyfan's picture

DF is also required to pay CS and help with daycare fees. Since BM won't work and only has class 2 nights a week, the judge didn't make DF pay for day care.

Do you know if BM can get a voucher for daycare?

majka's picture

I agree with echo. I understand that you say you do not have the money now, but this IS the less expensive deal since you don’t have to pay childcare. And unfortunately, I understand how messed up the system is, but these are his children, and he needs to pay one way or the other. This way he gets to see them a lot, and takes care of his obligations. That being said, insist she pays for EVERYTHING. No more feeding the children freely at your house. Ask for payment for that, and also school lunches during her days. Also, if she asks you to keep them at other random, unscheduled times, make yourself unavailable.

Madam Hedgehog's picture

I'm already working two jobs and if I take on anymore we'll have to send the kids to daycare and then the extra money will just go to that. :?

skylarksms's picture

PB (the psycho BM in our life) IS a day care provider. She has a baby who is almost one now.

PB and SD18 have a good racket going. PB watches SGB1.5 so SD can go do whatever she wants to do without the hassle of a baby around. For watching her own grandchild, PB bills SD for it. SD gets Government Assistance for Child Care costs. SO-o-o, SD gets reimbursed for the daycare costs for her son which she pays to the child's grandmother to watch said child.

I know that on previous scams, PB cut SD in on the deals - if she helped her. I bet anything they have some sort of a kick-back deal set up here too. What is the incentive for SD to parent her own baby if THEY can get money from the government using their little (legal!) scheme!??

When SD goes to spend Thanksgiving with PB and family, who is to stop them from saying that PB is SITTING for SGB1.5 and billing for FAMILY TOGETHER TIME?!?

Disneyfan's picture

"I'd also get my child care license and start charging her child care expenses. She has to give the kids to you because of the FRoR, so you can charge right under what a regular day care would charge and offset the cost of CS."

Be careful.
That may give BM too much power.

Once she starts paying,you work for her. She will get to tell you what you can or cannot do with her kids. She can request you show her lesson plans and menus each week.

The agency that issues the license may require an open door policy. That will give BM the right to pop up and enter your home at any time. (And hang around for as long as she likes).

If BM has a few days off, instead of keeping the kids home, she can drop them off with you.

She will be able to call children services (and maybe the health department) to complain about ANYTHING. The health department and/or ACS can pop up at any time to investigate a complaint.

skylarksms's picture

She will be able to call children services (and maybe the health department) to complain about ANYTHING. The health department and/or ACS can pop up at any time to investigate a complaint.

She could do this regardless and would screw herself out of a babysitter at the same time.