I couldn't even update yesterday, I was too upset
We lost in court.
SS13 wasn't brought to the hearing. BM got on the stand and said that SS13 only wants to see his dad for 2 weeks in the summer. She said he has no friends in our state, can't make friends and he doesn't like my kids. She lied about where she lives, she lied about the sports he is involved in, she lied about everything. This kid has a blast with my kids, he has friends on our cul-de-sac, he is a social butterfly and doesn't know a stanger. And we couldn't do anything about it. Every argument our lawyer made was objected and he was silenced. We never had a shot. The Judge just saw FDH as her paycheck too.
Our plan to talk to SS13 will be to tell him what his mother told the judge. To tell him that if he want to have a relationship outside of 4 weeks a year with us he is going to have to say so. He is going to have to get on a stand and tell a judge. We are going to tell him that we have spent $30,000 to get 4 weeks a year with him and we can't do anymore without him. Our doors are always open and we love him very much but he has to be active in this fight. If he doesn't want to be then at least we know where he stands... poisoned against us.
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I'm so sorry things didn't go
I'm so sorry things didn't go as planned. Why do they always seem to believe BM over Dad? When CS was being decided with DH - BM told them she pays 16.00 an hour for child care - when she doesn't pay a red cent - he stays free where she works. And of course they believed her. HUGS to you.
I know you are hurting, but
I know you are hurting, but DO NOT put that burden on that child. If he asks why he only gets 4 weeks a year, tell him that is what the judge said based on what BM presented in court. If SS doesn't like it, he can speak with his mother about it.
However, DO NOT put him in a position where he feels like he has to choose between his parents. Don't put him in a position where he feels like the only way he will be loved fully is if he fights. He is going to internalize that to think that he either fights for you, which fights against his mom, or he doesn't fight but loses his dad.
Grieve. Cry. Get counselling to deal with the loss. Hate BM with every fiber of your being. Vent, scream, punch pillows, throw something into a wall (so long as no one is in the way). What you went through SUCKS, and your DH is now in a very heartbreaking but familiar club of ATM Dads.
But do not. Do not. DO NOT. Place any of this loss, including financial loss, on your SS. It's not his responsibility to fight to see his dad. It's not his burden to feel like he just wasted $30k of dad's money. He is innocent in this, so please don't drag him through it all.
I agree with the part about
I agree with the part about leaving out the money. He is 13 and if he asks his dad shouldn't he get an honest answer. If his the boy says he wants to spend more time with his dad shouldn't his dad tell him if that is what you want you have to tell a judge.
"Couldn't his dad simply say hey buddy I have tried everything I can, but unfortunately as adults we can only do so much to convince a judge. Sometimes judges need to hear what the kids want to make a different decision. If you really want more time you will have to speak if we go before the judge again."
It is not really putting him the middle but some what letting him know that his voice is really important in all this. I strongly believe that kids need to be informed of all the information when they are of the right age. If this boy lives in a home with a BM who is constantly keeping him from his dad and says things and does things to get this boy to turn on his father that is not right. If she continues to lie and the judge only listens to her what other option is a dad left with? He loses his son and has a horribly strained relationship with him all because the woman popped the kid out of her and he is just the sperm. Good example on how our court system is still so behind and narrow minded. Sorry off topic.
I am kinda surprised that the judge did not want to speak to the kid about how he would like to spend his time. He is old enough to understand and know what he wants within limits.
I agree they should not put that much on the kid but I think it is ok for him to know some stuff and to make a choice. He needs to know his dad did fight for him and that he does love him.
So what happens when the kid
So what happens when the kid asks for more time with dad, BM doesn't agree, and the judge keeps custody the same? Now the kid feels, again, like he failed dad. And now BM is mad that she was made to look like a witch in front of the judge.
I think answering questions honestly when asked is good, but I don't think approaching the kid expecting him to fight this battle on behalf of dad is right. Given how little time this judge gave OP's DH, kid is going to have to convince BM of having more time with dad before he can even think of talking to a judge.
I get what you are saying. I
I get what you are saying. I agree do not just tell him what happened unless he asks. I do think if he does ask his dad they need to be honest without making the BM seem like a witch in the process.
I feel for the kid most of all in this situation. It seems like this kid will be put in the middle not matter how things happen, sounds like he is already. It sucks in order to not really put him the middle and to keep him from all the drama the dad just has to give up and look like the bad guy in all of it.
When will courts ever understand that even BM's can be crappy horrible people. Why is there still the thought process out there, that because you birthed the child you automatically put them first and will do no harm to that child. Again sorry off topic.
I do not think the kid has much chance of convincing BM until he is older and able to just drive himself to see his dad.
SS spoke 2 Judge: ONLY reason DH got custody
BM showed up at court one summer day prepared to lie, lie, lie (including but not limited to writing a letter she claimed SS authored) for the custody hearing when my SS (then 13) got called into the judge's chambers. After a 1/2 hour convo, Judge said SS would try living with DH for a semester (diff town, diff school) and come back in December to talk to her. We returned in December and she spoke privately with SS again, and announced the order was now permanent. My DH had lost many, many times to BM in court before we got together, and he was a Gold Card Member of the ATM Daddy club... so he couldn't believe it, and wept after both those hearings because he got his prayers answered of finally rescuing his son from that rabid narc harpy manipulator beyotch from Hades known as BM.
I am so sorry it went the other way for you, my heart aches for you. I wanted to share our experience with an awesome, perceptive, and great-with-kids Judge to perhaps give you hope for the future. Because although the custody case went my DH's way, the subsequent five child support hearings SUCKED. That cray BM put on a performance that only an over-the-top narc could deliver, and it tore me UP inside to see her lying under oath... until the sixth child support hearing.
Which we WON. The child support was re-calculated and recommended at $666. (No joke!) It took time, effort & tears, but they finally got BM's number.
That is a beautiful story! I
That is a beautiful story! I am so happy for your family. Thank you for sharing and showing that there may still be hope.
I suggest a punching bag and
I suggest a punching bag and some boxing gloves (barefisted feels better... But a broken hand has turned me off that for a bit, lol). It really helps get out some of the feelings...
I'm so sorry for your loss...
I'm so sorry!
I'm glad that you're planning to be honest with the skiddo. We had to have that conversation with SD after our last go-round in court. She was waffly with the GAL because BM told her that she should tell the GAL that she wanted to do what BM wanted. It was a situation of natural consequences. When you don't stick up for yourself, you will be stuck doing whatever you're told. And Dad can't fix it for you, when you hose it up, either.
Since that time, SD comes over complaining about BM on the regular, and each time, we let her know that she needs to take that up with her mother, not us. We help her figure out how to talk to Mom, but DH will not intervene on her behalf unless there's something on fire. For example, if she wants more time with us, she'll need to work that out with her mother. Awful, but she created the situation!
Same thing here - I had the "use your voice" conversation as wel
Lately, since around January, after the big blowout fight that TBM had with her then-boyfriend I like to call Tweedle-Dum, TBM has been on a dating spree. And online, and texting diffferent men. And sharing her adventures and stories of men with her not-quite-12-year-old daughter. Munchkin cries and tells me how sad she is, how upset she is, hearing about all the different guys. How she is sad because her mother spends all their time together (50/50 custody), texting these different guys, and not paying any attention to her.
I held her as she sobbed. But I did tell her "you need to tell your mother how you feel about her sharing this stuff."
Most recently, before she was going to spend the weekend with her mother, I told her the following:
"Sweety, your mom is acting like your BFF right now. You need her to be your mom, you know that right?"
- yeah, thats right.
"So sweety, its ok for you to create boundaries with your mom. Its ok to tell her just 'I dont want to hear about that stuff', and leave it at that."
- Oh! Ok.
UGH... that is disgusting.
UGH... that is disgusting.
Do not put this on a 13 year
Do not put this on a 13 year old child. He is 13 and you’re basically going to tell him “You wasted our money and it’s your fault you don't get to come.”
Did he refuse to get on the stand or did BM refuse to let him. You said she didn’t bring him to court. Why didn’t your lawyer demand it? Where is the GAL? The child is old enough to be heard.
You can’t put him against his mother like this. You’re thinking of telling a 13 year old CHILD to stand up to his mother? Consider how that is going to go? Do you really think she’s going to care what he says?
I’m sorry but you guys are the adults and your job is to protect the child. What you’re thinking of doing is emotional abuse in my eyes. Given I understand your reasoning but it’s completely inappropriate and that’s why must custody orders even say what you’re thinking of doing is not allowed.
Was he ordered to be there to
Was he ordered to be there to talk to the judge? Did you have a chance to refute BM's lies?
I'm sorry your outcome wasn't
I'm sorry your outcome wasn't at all what you hoped for.
I would definitely not mention to SS how much it cost you to get 4 weeks with him - that's a burden he doesn't need to bear. I DO think it's important for him to know that his dad fought for more time with him and did his best to be able to see his son as much as possible. If he asked why the judge decided as he did, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him what BM testified. If in fact SS had told BM all of those things (about not having friends, not liking your kids, etc.), I don't see anything wrong with giving a child of that age the facts so he can see the consequences of his actions. If BM blatantly lied about those things, I think he's old enough to know that, too. But I wouldn't tell him he needs to do something about it. Maybe it's not fair to burden a kid with those facts, but I'd rather do that than have him think for a minute that his father didn't value time with him and didn't try his best to see him more.
We requested that SS be there
We requested that SS be there, BM said she didn't feel it was appropriate so she didn't bring him. The judge let it go. The judge didn't let us call her out on the lies and after she testified with her attorney that was it. It was over.
I understand what some of you are saying but we disagree. We might tone it down slightly and maybe leave out the money but the statements have to be made. His mother lies. If he doesn't step up and have a voice, even at 13 almost 14, nothing will change and we CAN'T keep throwing $$$ away. He has to understand that it isn't that we don't want him and we want to stop but he has to be a part of it if he wants any change. If he doesn't, then this is it, we are too late. Relating the facts of what happened isn't against any orders. Telling him that he has to be willing to take a stand before we can go back to court isn't doing anything against any orders.
Shoot, maybe I will order the transcripts of the hearing and just leave it in his room for the summer for some reading.
I am sorry
that things turned out this way in court. Please remember that things can still change. Even if you do not put any more money into fighting, things can still change with time. When he's a little older, BM might change her mind and WANT him to live with you guys. You just never know. Step back, if you must, but don't give up hope.
At the same time, he is too young to read court transcripts or be told that he has to tell BM what he wants. She refused to bring him to court, so the judge could not consult him, and will continue to do so whether the child tells BM he wants more time with his dad or not. It sets him up to feel that he has failed his dad if it doesn't work out. Too much pressure on a child. They eventually start seeing the truth when they come of age.
Remember what they say, it is a long game. You may have lost one battle in a long fight, it does not mean that things cannot change.
Its been 5 years. At some
Its been 5 years. At some point you do give up hope, we can't afford this any more. BM wins. They always win when they refuse to co-parent.
It is crazy to me, I was telling my kids step mom what happened because we were talking about switching up our summer schedule a little for SS coming out. At the end of her e-mail consoling me she wrote "I'm here if you need to vent or chat. Not just as a co-parent with you, but as a friend."
I have never done anything other than say hello to BM. I have only seen her in person 3 times in 2.5 years. I smile, I stay pleasant- my grandma would be proud of me being a gracious southern lady... However, she hates me. She hates that I exsist. What did she think my FHD was going to do? Sit around and pine for her fat ass forever??? My guy is a keeper, sorry her Mr. Mullet man is gross. Why can't she swallow her issues can co-parent and do what is best for SS?? I would love to have a friendly relationship with her for SS sake. I do it with my kids other parents, I would love to do this with her as well.
I think the child is old
I think the child is old enough to be in court and state their own wishes. Its ashame that children have to be placed in this predicament and that the mother isnt trying to make this transition as smooth as possible. What an awful feeling to be placed in the middle like this. I pray that things work out in your favor in the near future. The kids always pay for the BS of a parent that just can't get over themselves.
Very Sorry To Hear This
It's too bad these judges can't see a snow job by the GUBM, but most of them can't. The judge in our case believes everything that the Girhippo utters so I feel your pain. Eventually SS may PAS out because the GUBM is poisoning the well, but that isn't anything you can control since the legal system is so messed up.
You and FDH will go through a mourning period but then will start to focus on your kids and be a family with or without SS. It's too bad the system encourages this bullshit but eventually it may be best to drop the rope. And yes, the children always pay the price for egocentric BMs (and in some cases bioDADs)
Some Judges see thru BM's BS.
Ours did (see my post above). I saw the look in the Judge's eyes, when BM was throwing out lies like Hela's swords in Thor- Judge did not buy the b.s. and cut BM off to ask where was SS? She made BM leave & bring SS to court so she could speak privately in her chambers. She said she wanted to hear what SS had to say, and before announcing her decision, made sure to emphasize it was HER decision, not SS's.
This is such a rural county
This is such a rural county that they live in, the court house is in the next county over, more than an hour away. I wish the judge had the balls to do that... but no... BM's word is gold.
I absolutely would tell SS
I absolutely would tell SS about what happened in court. Children need to learn to have a voice and to stand up for themselves. If a 13 year old went to court and told a judge he wants to spend the full summer with his dad, and his dad is a good and loving parent, there is NO reason a court wouldn't grant the child a summer with his NCP. I would absolutely say, "Your SM and I spent $30,000 in the last few years trying to get more time with you because we love you so much. We cannot fight to have you in our home for more than the 4 weeks granted by the judge unless YOU are willing to tell the judge, in an affadavit, that you want to spend more time with me. Please remember that we love you very much and that as you get older, you get more say in where you spend your time. I know it is hard to be a child of divorce and have parents fighting over you, but it must mean you are a pretty amazing kid since we both want to spend so much time with you! Again, if you want to spend more time with me, please let me know and when you are here next time we will get an affadavit drafted with an attorney and file your wishes in court. The ball is in your court."
When the child is older, and an adult with his own kids, he will look back and know that his father did the best he could and fought to have more time with him. Hopefully that will be enough to heal the wounds that come from not having an active father in his life due to the choices of his mother.
That would be great
but the fact that SS13 wasn't brought to the hearing says it all. The BM will KEEP SS13 from testifying saying it is "too traumatic" for him to speak and that he is "afraid of bioDAD" blah blah. It would be nice if that could happen though.
I wonder if an affidavit
I wonder if an affidavit would be enough for this judge to pull his head out of his ass. Like, if SS said, I don't play football, I don't live at xzy address, I live with my mom's boyfriend at abc address. I want to spend time with my dad. I like my step sibilings, I have friends in VA. -- Would that be enough for the judge to do anything?? Or if it has already gotten this far, is it just too late?
I think you need to ask
I think you need to ask yourselves a few questions:
1.) Would SS be comfortable outting his mother?
2.) If visitation doesn't change, will BM punish SS in some way?
3.) Would BM be upset enough to disown SS as punishment, which would give your DH custody but cause SS to lose his mom? And if this happened, would SS internalize the abandonment or understand his mom is deranged?
4.) Would the judge look favorably on ANY input from SS? Some judges just do not care what the kids want and actually look down on the parents who involve the kids.
5.) How much more money are you willing to spend? Even if a judge were to accept the affidavit, they won't change custody without bringing both parents back before the court. You won't be able to win without an attorney. This will cost you more money.
I really am sorry that you lost this. It sucks knowing that she lied and won. But before you drag SS through this, really consider all the outcomes, good and bad.
You are very very right. They
You are very very right. They way this judge, who is the only family judge that will ever hear our case, just dismissed my FHD... would anything ever matter? Probably not.
We have to accept that it is over and move on with our lives.
I don't think you need to
I don't think you need to accept that it is over. This particular journey may be over, or on hiatus, but that doesn't mean your FDH can't have a loving and fulfilling relationship with SS.
My SBro's BM (we'll call her She-Devil) is a GUBM to the extreme. My SF couldn't do enough to make him not a deadbeat in her eyes. My SBro blamed my SF for a long time for not saving him from her, and I think he really resented my siblings and I when SF married my mom and saw us FT.
However, as my SBro has gotten older, he understands the fight my SF faced. He always knew She-Devil was a real piece of work, but didn't realize the full extent until he was almost an adult. Now my SBro is 31 and has ZERO relationship with She-Devil while being extremely close to SF. In fact, SBro sees SF almost weekly since SF is very active as a grandfather to SBro's daughter.
Hope is out there, but it may take patience. Yes, your FDH is going to have to grieve and learn how to move forward. My DH was awarded EOWE only - 52 days a year. No holidays, no breaks, nothing. Just 52 days, and what sucks about that is he lived less than 30 minutes from his kids and could have easily had more times. BM was bad when they were younger (and she had DH by thr gonads) about withholding the boys, or asking DH to babysit for a few hours and "counted it" as his weekend time. There were years where he maybe got to see his kids 30 days - and the court didn't one iota of care.
Now that my SSs are older and they don't revolve their lives around BM (and BM is frustrated with their behavior, and I think scared that DH would take them if she effed up again), she has loosened up the reigns. However, it has been nearly a decade of drama and games.
Play the long game now. There may be an opportunity to turn this into a short game, but unless your attorney or another trusted one tells you to push forward, you should consider how you all can facilitate the relationship between FDH and SS. Can they email? Text? FaceTime? Facebook? Insta? Twitter? Unless BM has SS's social media on lockdown, explore those options. Can DH get added to the school email list and see when SS has open houses, events, fundraisers, etc? Maybe FDH can fly out to see SS for some of his bigger public events. And unless the CO says FDH can't be added to the school list, hound the school to be included. Threaten legal action against them if they exclude you. You'll get further that way than through the courts. Same goes for his coaches.
Again, you can facilitate a relationship from a distance, but it will take extra work and patience. No, it may not work how your FDH hopes, and yes, SS may become poisoned against FDH. But the more FDH actively tries to engage with his son, the less likely that BM's poison will work. ESPECIALLY if FDH can communicate to SS that he knows things only an engage parent would know, like his teachers' and coaches' names, his grades, how he is doing as an athlete, etc.