At my wits end 18 months in
Hi all,
New member looking for advice.
Male, early 40's, married 18 months, no children of my own.
Wife has two children, SS 21, SD 24.
SS lives away - no real issues.
SD - omg where do I start. Has been at university (not currently) and now stuck home with us due Covid-19. When I first met my wife it was apparent SD had little respect for her BM and I was shocked by the abuse my wife received (and still does). Huge problems when SD has lived with us due to her attitude: basically entitled, self-centred, argumentative, lazy, rude, thoughtless. Mum and gran have pandered to her every need since birth I think. She has no coping skills whatsoever and frequently cries when life doesn't go her way or simply isn't fair. Treats her mum like her personal punch bag, letting off steam when university stresses her out. Treats us and our house appallingly - no rent, no chores. I fell out with her in a big way over her behaviour at Christmas and she left for a while but she's back at her mothers insistence. Things are as they were all along with her childish, mardy tantrums over nothing on an almost daily basis. It's like she's 12.
Wife only too aware of the problem (she bears the brunt of it) but I'm concerned that she blames herself for the girls behaviour and struggles with guilt at the thought of booting her out.
At my wits end because it's getting me down. The atmosphere in the house is awful.
As I said at the beginning I am not a parent myself and I don't know if her behaviour is perhaps part of growing up. My own thought on it is that she's a little old to behave like this - to me it's like what you would see in mid- to late-teens?
Just asking for help in understanding this and perhaps advice on how to handle it. Sorry if my description of her sounds like a character assasination but I think what I've said is fair and accurate.
Launch plan?
If you read around on this site, which I recommend, you will find many people who have had or still have this exact same issue. The bottom line is your SD needs to go. Obviously, you can't put her out the door today, but you and DW and SD need a launch plan. Without goijng into more detail, i suggest you search for thst term here on Steptalk, you will learn a lot. You are positively not alone and you aren't doing character assassination, i believe every word ( you're probably understating). Good luck.
Thanks so much - will read up
Thanks so much - will read up on that.
I think the problem is almost as much to do with DW as it is SD in that I she has basically pandered to her every need and now she feels guilty when she doesn't. Take last night for example - a few hours after another row with SD we hear a shout from the bedroom "mum come here!" and straight away, because her ladyship had clicked her fingers my wife went to her room and talked with her for nearly three hours. This left me frustrated and a bit left in the lurch.
Sorry...
Sorry. No real words of support here. Just came to tell you you are not alone. My SS also treats us all like garbage and the only one enjoying it is my husband. My and my son just have to accept that king of treatment. My husband was ill, infected with the corona virus, and his son never once left his room to help or even check for his father. Even so, my husband thinks he is a God's gift to mankind. It's taking me a while to see, but I don't think there's a solution to this. He needs his son's approval probably as much as your wife needs her daughter's. And they would rather die than admit they have shitty kids. I already ruined my marriage, but if I could turn back time, I think I would just have sat and watched and never interfered at all. It was not my problem. I just had to do less, not more. My mistake costed me my marriage. Don't interfere with their relationship. Don't help your wife, she doesn't want to be helped. Sorry for the harsh truth. Good luck.
Unfortunately, this is all
Unfortunately, this is all too common nowadays - adult children living at home, dependent on their parents and behaving like teenagers. But no, it's not normal and healthy.
Really, you have a wife problem. She is rescuing, enabling and coddling her daughter. I agree that you two need to sit down and come up with a launch plan that's quick and permanent. Don't let her convince you that it's mean to make this woman-baby learn to stand on her own too feet, it's actually doing SD a favor to kick her out of the nest.
Common problem
As you read around on Steptalk, you will see that, too. Most of us are incensed at our stepchildren but when we delve into the issue, we find that the person we should be angry at is our spouse. I deeply resented my 3 stepkids for years. I realize now that my DH had unrealistic expectations and was a Disney dad with a mini-wife (Steptalk terms). In other words, it was his parenting that caused problems, not the kids.
Your DW has been the problem
Your DW has been the problem all along and now she's paying the price for being a lazy parent. She's done her daughter a disservice by not providing her with experiences to learn how to cope with being an adult. Pandering to children and teens, removing all stresses and struggles only leaves a crippled, dependent adult.
Time for your SD to grown up. Your wife might benefit from some counseling so she can learn how to be strong as she changes her interactions with her daughter. She must learn to say no, she must insist that the girl function as an adult. That means household responsibilities, financial responsibilities, and respectful relationships. If SD can't or won't do those things, she can't live there.
Or, if your wife won't do it, you may need to be the heavy and take the lead in getting this girl to launch. No fun for you, but your current situation isn't any fun either.
Parenting is not rocket
Parenting is not rocket science. We have all been the age that this kid is and we know how we behaved and what our own parents would and would not tolerate.
This crap being served by a 24yo is only part of her growing up, or more accurately her failing to grow up, because it has been tolerated, nurtured and facilitated for her by a set of failed parents who for whatever reason have completely missed the fact that their failed prior family breeding experiment is a waste of effort.
Don't second guess yourself. Anyone, whether a breeder themselves or not, can recognize the result of crappy parenting.
IMHO of course.
Good luck.
Thought provoking stuff
So many interesting replies - thank you all.
It is comforting to know others are having exactly the same issues and this isn't me being an overly demanding father figure. I must admit it has been a bit sobering to see clearly that this down to parenting; it's hard to imagine SD as a victim when she's treating us like we're stuck to the bottom of her shoe. Looking back I really should have seen this coming. Her lack of respect for BM was clear to see and I suspected there would be issues living with her - I foolishly didn’t expect that to happen except for a couple of weeks a year during holidays. When I called her out on her disrespectful behaviour I had all my efforts thrown back in my face. All I have asked for is some respect for us and our house.
The advice on counselling is an interesting point because that is something I already thought about and suggested to DW. I told her that standing up to her daughter and potentially having to kick her out is massive for her and something she would need emotional support with. She is easily talked round by manipulative SD. DW was physically abused by a previous husband and bought the children up as a single parent. I have tried to reassure her she did her best in exceptionally difficult circumstances. I am trying to get through to her that she needs to stop feeling guilty and start parenting.
Your Wife IS THE REASON SD IS THE WAY SHE IS...She is her
enabler. Of course she will feel guilty giving her the boot, because "good parents" don't do "tough love."
I really feel for you, but this entirely ON YOUR WIFE. SHE PUTS UP WITH SD'S CRAP at the expense of your marriage. Why on earth would you marry someone with kids when you have none? Most of us here would NEVER AGAIN DATE A PERSON WITH KIDS if we survive this go round.
Your wife has some changes to make regarding her daughter for the sake of your marriage. You need to have raw conversations and take the relationship apart piece by piece and analyze the good, the bad and the ugly. I refer to it as a "relationship autopsy."
Doing nothing changes NOTHING.
Good luck!
I was marrying my wife, not
I was marrying my wife, not her children. Had they been younger I would have gone into it expecting them to be a part of the setup and have the usual growing up issues but as adults I expected them to become less of a concern, not more. You live and learn.
I too had the misconception that "adult kids" would be easy on
the marriage/relationship, but it has proven exponentially more difficult than juvenile aged children.
Just the horrible disrespect, manipulation and intrusion to our marriage has been shocking. Most healthy, well adjusted adults would WANT THEIR PARENTS TO BE HAPPY and respect that. Not so, as you are learning and living.
I'm hoping this will work out the way you need it to. You are correct, you said your vows to your wife, not her feral brat.
What you said there about
What you said there about wanting their parents to be happy is exactly what I said to DW only the other day.
Thanks for your thoughts and good luck to you too. It sounds like you've had/are having as much fun as I am!
She's 24 for crying out loud.
She's 24 for crying out loud. To what end do parents have to support these adults, especially misbehaving adults with no respect?
When you got together, was there a launch plan ever discussed for SD?
Hi there, no because she wasn
Hi there, no because she wasn't living at home. She lived away at university most of the year. She only came home for a week here and there. When Covid-19 came along she had to come home again as there was no other option - she couldn't go to her 84-year old gran as she did in the past.
I was very reluctant to have her back following the row at Christmas. Her return though has at least proved I was right about the stinking attitude and even DW wants her out now!
Good!
Now that your wife is on board, it's launch plan time. So now it's just a matter of how, not if. Progress!
Well the latest development
Well the latest development from England's plushest free five star hotel is that following another meltdown today she's going back to her University tomorrow!
Yah!
Yes, new door lock time! Congratulations!
Help your wife stay strong. As time goes by, she might feel guilt or pity. Often these kids try to boomerang.
I sense the difficulty now
I sense the difficulty now will be peace of mind for DW. She's struggling a bit already today. SD wanted to arrange a meeting between her, DW and SS. I think this is pointless because I don't see how the three of them can solve an argument that involves me. It seems like SD is trying to cajole her brother into siding up with her against DW perhaps?
Correct
Is she still in agreement with you that SS needs to be launched? If so, perhaps a meeting with ALL FOUR of you might firm up launch details and SS can help. Otherwise, it sounds like an end run with both kids pressuring mom. And, YOU are not the problem, the problem is SS getting launched.
SS has nothing to do this
SS has nothing to do this this, unless he's offering to let SD live with him. If that were the case, no point for the meeting.
This is another opportunity for SD to be independent. She doesn't need her brother to help gang up on your DW.
SS is only just in the
SS is only just in the process of buying a house and he would need a check up from the neck up to let her live with him and his girlfriend.
The problem is that SD won't engage with me at all. When we row she tries to recruit people like her nan (and now her brother) to take her side. She knows she doesn't have a cat in hells chance of winning an argument with me.
As I said earlier in the thread she has the mind of a child and is unable to handle her own affairs and fight her own battles because mummy and nanny have always been there to do it for her.
Update!
Wife comes home last night and tells me she needs to go and help SD move stuff from her flat and she said she might come home for a while (between flats.) I have told her how hard this is for me with SD refusing to engage me but wife says she can't deny her daughter her "home." Any thoughts on how I play this now?
This would be my hill to die
This would be my hill to die on. If daughter moves in, you move out. Apparently she can't deny her daughter her "home" but she is quite willing to deny you any say about who lives in your home.
It seems on the face of it my
It seems on the face of it my DW is deliberately being unreasonable but the problem I feel is her lack of strength. SD is infintely stronger willed than DW and hence wins all the arguments. To add to the problem my mother-in-law is playing a big part in this because she has been just as enabling as DW. SD goes to her for money, sympathy and a stroke of her ego. If DW dare stand up to SD, SD goes crying to MIL who then gets on to DW for upsetting her little princess.
Wow so not just enabled by DW
Wow so not just enabled by DW but Mil also
Life is too short to deal with this...
The SD will not change, be thankful she doesn't have babies to dump off at your house. SD sounds very manipulative. Your wife will benefit from setting very firm boundaries with her adult daughter, a great therapist can help your wife with this, also enforcing the boundaries in a consistent manner, not caving in at every whimper from her manipulative and immature daughter. Gran can keep enabling, doubt anyone can change behaviors of a woman of her age, so your SD can live wth gran now.
I was in a similar situation and decided to leave a few months ago, divorce should be final tomorrow. I couldn't imagine being stuck in a house during this corona with STBXH and his DaughterWife, also 24, zero boundaries...ugh! I'm a therapist and when they disrespected my boundaries and the relationship deal-breakers were revealed...I was gone. The folks on this site helped me a great deal!
I hope SD can find a place to stay other than your home. We are cheering for you!
Your marriage was doomed to fail.
This dynamic has been going on at least since your wife was a child. The patterns are deeply ingrained, and not likely to change.
You are able to see that these three women are caught up in the dance of dysfunction, so you either join in, or get out and leave them to it. Your wife has made it clear that you, your personal happiness and your marriage are not her priority, so stop feeling sorry for her and tell her it's you or SD.
Thank you for the replies. I
Thank you for the replies. I cannot tell you how much it means to me to be able to share my SD troubles here and people like you take the time to try to help me.
This sounds so familar. I
This sounds so familar. I have two SD 19,21 but both the maturity of a 15yr old. They say all the time to their father stop treating me like a kid. All the while he pays their car, car ins, phone, groceries, college. I married my husband and we discussed house rules and had a list but what we failed to discuss was consequences. So when there was some huge outbursts I wanted them out. They would not leave. One daughter lives with us and the other is so entitled and drama that she went to live with her mom in another country. She is suppose to be back in Sept. So what I suggest is knowing what your own personal boundaries are. I made a list. One of mine is disrepecting me. I have deciced that the one who may come back can not live here. She has crossed the line with me too many times and with both girls together its a shit show. My husband and I started counseling and it helps but you have to do the work and really talk things out. I have a lot of resentment built up for both his girls. Their mother is a narcassist and left both girls and moved to her home county. So my husband has been feeling guilty and doesn't want them to feel abandoned by him. The problem is he has always been there since they were little. The problem is my husband and how he enables bad behavior and no consequences or boundaries. Without any of these you have weak adults that can't cope with any crisis or problem they encounter. You need to sit down with your spouse and discuss this big issue. It will only get bigger and you wonlt be happy. It is already affecting your relationship. Sounds to me your wife needs her own counseling alone and you go to someone together as well. My husband is doing this right now. If you are like me or most people on this site the solutions are so simple but the manipulaiton and dysfunction in these relationships are ingrained. You nee to be firm with your boundaries and have some with your spouse. I hope it gets better for you. I do know most kids like this need a good dose of reality and to be launched or else this sagga with go on into their adulthoold.
Hopefully you were heading
Hopefully you were heading out the door as SD and your DW were walking in.
What is the current status? Hopefully you found the testicular fortitude to give your DW clarity that her daughter will be the end of your marriage. If DW does not immediately find the spine to put her DH and marriage before the failed prior relationship breeding experiment of an SD, then leave that shallow and polluted gene pool to its own divises and get on with your life. This kid and the other one will never go away so your only options is to put and keep them in their place, accept the situation as it is, or find someone else to make a life with.
Take care of you.
Mental health
Update on my situation: SD 25 came back home a few months ago (following her latest fallout with her roommate) and whilst we've got on okay that's really only down to a massive amount of effort on my part. We have a launch plan in place and she should be gone in the Spring when she has enough savings for a house. You won't be surprised to hear she is single and there seems to be no prospect of finding a long term partner at the moment.
What has occurred to me since living with her full time is that she may have mental health issues driving her behaviour. She seems to me to demonstrate traits of Borderline Personality Disorder. Maybe, maybe not, but she seems to be fragile, angry, irritable, stressed and lacking in confidence etc all the time.
I feel I don't want to start playing hardball with her if there are mental health issues, but if i'm right how do you go about tackling them!?
Welcome back!
I typically dont read posts over a year old, but hey - seems like things have changed. Did you take any of the advice given back in 2020?
Therapy was suggested. Consequences was also suggested. I would say that even with mental health issues, boundaries and consequences will still apply.
Some changes
Hi California from a chilly England! Thanks for reading.
Some changes were made; her return was conditional in that she pays board and she agrees to a launch plan. That launch plan is highly detailed and involves saving. The good thing is that I genuinely believe she wants to move out so there is motivation for her to save.
Living with her for a longer period has enabled me to get a bit closer to her, which I think has helped. This is why I'm now looking at the mental health side of things. She has confided in me when she's got upset, and there is no doubt a big issue for her is isolation/loneliness. We try to include her all we do but of course someone who deep down feels empty and lonely isn't in the slightest bit helped by that. I know for sure she has a big issue with being single - you know how it is these days with young people. She hates Christmas - and makes it a nightmare for all around her - because she's so sensitive to being on her own. This I think may be her biggest problem.
To put it bluntly it's a catch-22: her childishness is preventing her getting a boyfriend and the frustration that causes her is driving her childish behaviour!
What do you do with that!?
suggest therapy
you have to remember - you cant fix her. Shes got to want changes and got to do it herself. If she wont, then you must disengage and hold her to your requirements with consequences for failure to uphold your standards. Shes old enough to know better and do better, is my opinion. You are treating her with empathy. She needs to do the work.
Yes, its in the 70s here in my neck o the woods
Im going out for a hike shortly