ADVICE needed for next week meeting
I havent posted in a few years... things have been in a steady state of disengagment, however...
BACKGROUND: DH and I have SD23 and SD20 - there is a history of toxic behaviour (primarily from miniwife SD23, see previous blogs), they don't live with us. We also contend with a toxic MIL who creates a split between DH and SDs so she can 'parent' them.
To cut a very long story short:
Last year we had 2 weeks of leave from work (the first time off work from the start of the pandemic - we both work in healthcare so have had a really stressful time). SD23 decided to go clubbing with friends (which she didn't tell us) and then came to stay with us for our leave and immediatley tested covid positive (as did her friends). We were then forced to isolate toegther for the rest of the quartantine period instead of the realxing break we had planned. This has been the worse period of my life - and given that I was abused as a child, this is really saying something.
During this time, SD was constantly sending DH grovelling texts from her bedroom and apologising profusely. DH asked her to apologise to me - she refused repeatedly. Because ' i dont need to apologise to HER'. I lost several thousands of pounds for cancelled work during that period - and there was a knock on impact on my patients having their treatements delayed which some had waited over a year for. All because of her selfish behaviour and to this day she has not apologised or demonstrated any remorse. She simply doesnt care.
During isolation period, DH and I had many heated arguments about SD23 and her behaviour and lack of apology. At one point, DH stated that if I lost out on earnings, I could just work every weekend for the next few months to make it up but that I cant discuss it with her because she would be too upset. I completely lost it - shouting at the top of my voice that i hate this situation and that i hate her for causing this. I felt trapped in my own home. I developed severe PTSD during that isolation period (I previously needed years of therapy to treat PTSD due to abuse in my childhood) and it took 3-4 months to get things under control again. DH later apologised for his words and thinks he has alot of guilt from the early years because he feels he should have done more for his children.
I feel alot better now, with help from lots of my friends. SDs have not been allowed to step in my home since (for the last year). DH has been treated very badly by his whole family in this period - they are very dismissive of him, and me. His eyes have finally opened. His family do not discuss emotions and do not really feel them. I have been to family funerals etc were nobody is allowed to cry/be upset and you are forced to 'act happy' - it is a very dysfunctional coercive environment.
The reason i'm writing for advice now is that DH has spent that last year meeting with SD23 and trying to talk to her and ask her to apologise etc Becasue of the way she behaves other family members feel uncomfortable. For example, SD20 is struggling with anxiety again owing to SD23 creating a tense environment for everyone, she also feels 'stuck in the middle' and feels she has to take sides with SD23. All of DH conversations with SD23 centre on her need for me to apologise to her because she overheard me shouting and saying I hate her. Which she fails to acknowledge only happened because of her actions in the first place. She has always been deeply manipulative - being a child of divorce has become her personality.
DH is really suffering with his mental health and feels he has no real family as everyone is in their own camp. DH had a shitty childhood (also suffered through abuse which is not acknowledged by MIL) and is desperate for a peaceful home/family, and it seems he is willing to compromise any boudatries to try and get that. He is also desperately sad that SD23 has turned into a carbon copy of HCBM.
DH has asked me to reach out to SD23 and to create an environment were it will be tolerable to sit in same room together. I really dont like her as i dont agree with her values - and if it was not for my DH I would never associate with a person like that. And he accepts this, but would like for everyone to sit at the same table for christmas or birthday dinner like civil adults. SD20 is actually a kind person so there are some silver linings to our domestic nightmare. At times, DH is on verge of tears. He recognises that his unwillingness to discipline/enforce boundaries motivated by fear of losing the SDs has contributed to SD23 behaviour. He routinely acknowledges that SD23 is one of the most selfish people he knows. I feel sorry for him that his children don't care at all about him but do seem to care alot when they need money for something. He has now acknowledged this as well. I have suggested therapy but he seems reluctant. There is also a very HCBM (and MIL) in the background that at time of divorce declared 'i'll make sure they won't want to know their father'.
DH and I are trying to take the high road but it's hard. We have also started the adoption process - DH (and I) are keen to have family members who have similar values to the both of us. His daughters have hurt him in ways that I don't think they will ever understand. We have not shared our adoption jounrey with DH family yet. My family members know and are supportive and friends are super excited for us.
I have agreed to reach out to SD23 but I have refused to pander to her - I am pretty straight talking. I dont want to make the situation worse but I need to say my piece and make sure nobody is left with any doubts about where the boundaries lie. I feeel like this is 'make or break'. Either she fully accepts her shortcomings and we can try and move on in a low-contact civilised way or this will cause a permanent split in the family.
I will plan to meet SD23 in a neutral enviroment eg cafe. Has anybody had a conversation like this? Before i meet her i want to consider all possiblities and have a plan for these before I'm face to face with her - i dont want to be caught off guard. Any advice or thoughts that anyone can offer?
Xx
I'll be blunt. Nothing good
I'll be blunt. Nothing good will come of this. Anything and everything you say or do will be used against you. If you have to do it, ask questions and let her babble on. Bring a witness or audio tape it (if legal).
Don't do it
Frankly, I don't wish to offend but I think you're wasting your time on her. She is never going to accept that she is responsible for anything and you don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting an apology from her. Not even if you apply thumbscrews. So why set yourself up to be hurt yet again? She's had enough chances and has yet to show she can be a decent person to you.
As for your husband hoping you can all sit round a table at Xmas and have a civil meal together ... do not do it in your home. Only agree to this if it is to take place somewhere public. I'm sure there are restaurants where you live who do Xma meals, right? Don't let her darken your door again. Your home is your haven, do not invite anyone in who doesn't bring sunshine with them.
I think your husband's abusive childhood has damaged his moral compass - he has survived so much that he has pretty much normalized it all. He doesn't see that, by insisting on trying again and again, he is (unwittingly) emotionally abusing YOU. Get him to counselling/therapy ASAP. If he won't go, go by yourself to learn how to cope with all this and survive it.
Yup her husband is playing into the 1 big happy family
Bs.
he chose to normalise and accept such crap behaviour that he expects his wife to suck it up rather than deal with thr drama of firmly setting boundaries and holding eldest sd accountable
I think the biggest issue here is sd23 doesn’t believe she
Is at fault or to blame. All conversations with her dad revolve around your need ti apologise. Not that she disrespected house rules and this knock on effect of her selfishly going out unnecessarily in a high risk environment meant you were out of work and lost lots of income which she feels no remorse for
my eldest sd 3 yrs ago guilted her dad calling him with lies how he abandoned them to marry and have kids with me.
reality is sd's ended contact for 5.5 yrs and expected daddy be waiting in limbo for them as their narc mum loves manipulating people and toying with their emotions.
instead of hubby holding her to acct for her own actions that she chose to end contact with dad for 5.5 yrs over lies she knew her mum made about him and its not my or our then 2 kids aged 1 & 2.5 yrs old fault that sd's barely have a relationship with their dad
instead the usual sugarcoating happened from my husband how they will always be his kids. The moment sd's tried to blame me for the lack of relationship they have with daddy instead of taking responsibility themselves was when i ended things.
hubby has tried to do the 1 big happy family and force them upon me when i made it very clear i have no intentions torturing myself with their presence as they are dangerous people actovely trying to destroy our marriage and harmony and i will not tolerate that
hubby claims that they apologised but they haven't to me. It was the standard "sorry if i did anything wrong to dad" crap only for them to continue the same crappy behaviour
hubby refuses to stand up for himself against sd's and i've made it very clear that actions speak louder than words. They have made no attempt at any relationship with me or our 2 kids together and frankly i and our 2 kids have no interest having a relationship with strangers. They only fake a relationship in front of inlaws just for show so inlws don't call them out on their behaviour.
your husband is guilting and pressuring you to cave in to save face and keep the peace but he has no intentions of holding his daughter accountable. He has tried this hard to make her apologise and frankly any apology would not be genuine of her own accord.
you set up a firm boundary which you have a right to do. Sd has made not attempts to apologise and make amends. There is nothing to consider further in my opinion
there are some who truly do change and make amends of their own accord, but they make a genuine effort. Yours have not
Stop trying to fix what isn't
Stop trying to fix what isn't yours to fix. DH created this mess and it's his to fix or walk from. I'd suggest walking from everyone toxic that's in your story. Why bring another child into this situation if he's keeps trying what doesn't work? His own mother works against him. Reread your story as if your best friend wrote it. Step back and see the piles of $hit sandwiches that are the steady diet of his family and that they expect you to eat. Don't waste your time on an adult that refuses to apologize. Follow her lead and stop playing the game. There's a drama triangle with you, DH and SD. Back out of it and leave the two of them to work it out.
She wouldn't mean it anyway
Even if your DH persuaded SD to apologize, she wouldnt mean it anyway. I agree she treated you thoughtlessly at a great cost to yourself. But who wants to listen to this insincerity? It's meaningless. We step-parents often think we "win" if our SKs acknowledge poor behavior but unless it comes from them without coercion, it means nothing.
Your DH wants to pursue a relationship with his kids, fine. He can do that outside the home. Perhaps he does need therapy, as others have suggested.
I'd disengage completely. You dont need that toxicity in your life.
The last time hubby made adult ss who was 21 apologise for his
Behaviour and for our family to start afresh, ss came to me in kitchen whilst i was making the kids bottles of milk and mumbled.
he couldn't even be bothered to speak clearly.
all hubby got at work was nastiness from me about how his son comes to me mumbling crap I can't even understand. Turns out whilst he has a full on smirk says "daddy told me to apologise for my behaviour" yeah that really sounds genuine.
hubby lost it on ss asking him why did he say daddytold me to apologise, ss did something unacceptable and wrong and he should apologise for it to which ss tells dad he has imaginary stress syndrome.
the result of that is any mini getaways or o/seas holidays, skids don't come along as no one wants their crap
I've had a canter through your old blogs
Don't do this meeting.
Your SD has been a complete b*tch to you since she was at least 18 years old. She hasn't changed in 5 years. She isn't going to change her attitude to you over coffee and you'll just be providing her with more ammo.
My Life
12 years of trying. Even went to counseling sessions with DHs oldest daughter. She picked the therapist, set the two appointments back to back days. First session, therapist called her out on several issues. SD chose to not show the next day. Therapist calls her. "Oh, I forgot." Therapist reminded her SHE made the appointments. Therapist ended it all, saying it was useless and I was wasting my money.
Fast forward. After a final insult in February 2018, I completely disengaged from DHs kids. Zero contact. DH does ask occasionally for me to soften my stance. While I'm 95% over the hurt, anger and bitterness, I really have no desire to be around DH's kids. His wish - that we could at least enjoy a meal out together - will not happen. I do not "enjoy" being around people who refuse to acknowledge their shitty treatment of me, who project, lie, manipulate, etc. At best, IF I see them, they'll get a civil acknowledgment (like I do with a stranger) and that's it. I refuse to reach out. I did that enough with zero change.
I see the same for you. Your SD has said she won't apologize. So unless you can let that go, nothing has changed. By letting her back in with zero change, you're basically giving her the "right" to continue her toxic behavior. I wish you the best but personally, your DH needs to be "pushing" his daughter to talk with you, not the other way around.
Advice
I see you asked for that. I'd cancel the shit show. If you must attended, go in businesslike, state things must change and clearly express what changes are to be made and be ready for a huge projecting type discussion. Above all, DO NOT apologize. That's her job.
I’ve done the same and every now and then hubby will try the
"Oh but they apologised, lets start afresh, lets start on a blank slate etc" except fails to realise how many blank slates and starting afresh do you need to do to realize nothing about them has changed.
just because you're delusional and like to imagine the opposite of skids is happening so you don't have to confront unacceptable skid behaviour towards you, your spouse and kids with her, doesn't mean that i have to be, too.
i've made it clear to my husband that what he fails to realise is there comes a point where the bridge has been broken by them multiple times from their toxic crap that nobody in their right mind would cave in to their crap anymore or torture themselves with their presence. Just because my husband has minimal standards and would rather tolerate their crap and turn a blind eye thinking they're perfect doesn't mean that we have to too.
my husband keeps falling into but the skids are fine now and not as bad as you make them out to be, they love you all. To which i tell hubby that 3 yrs ago his eldest daughter guilted him for marrying me 5.5yrs after his divorce and having 2 kids with me when exwife was allowed to marry her affair guy days after divorce was finalised.
People like that sd don't get to pretend they all good now when nothing about their behaviour has changed, when they continually tried to break up our marriage and renegade me to beneath them, acted like miniwives answering me back regarding the parenting of our minor kids etc. they also don't get to pretend they love us now when its been 3 yrs plus we have had no contact whatsoever so stop lying as its so disrespectful.
my boundaries are up and they will remain up indefinitely not out of spite but because we deserve better than this toxic bullshit.
Powerful
Thank you. You said everything in my heart and mind. Brought me to tears. Someone who REALLY gets it.
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i've made it clear to my husband that what he fails to realise is there comes a point where the bridge has been broken by them multiple times from their toxic crap that nobody in their right mind would cave in to their crap anymore or torture themselves with their presence. Just because my husband has minimal standards and would rather tolerate their crap and turn a blind eye thinking they're perfect doesn't mean that we have to too.
People like that sd don't get to pretend they all good now when nothing about their behaviour has changed,
Thing is, bio parents are bound for life to their toxic spawn
Its that biological connection they have that no matter how disrespectful, manipulative etc they will still have some guilt and connection with their kids to save face.
what our partners/spouses fail to realise is we do not have the same connection. We were not pregant with this kid or biologically helped procreate that child and raised them since birth.
Their kids are infact strangers to us with no blood ties to us and so any foundation for building a relationship is dependent on both parties making an effort. As a spouse/partner, you come in wanting a harmonious home life, but manipulative toxic demon spawn play alpha female/territorial crap and cause so many issues.
those kids fail to realise we love our spouse/partner, are committed to them and want to build a future together but they're hellbent on getting rid of us and destroying their parents marriage with no remorse because its all a powerplay to them. They couldn't care less how miserable their parent is when his or her marriage ends because of skid issues and parents lack of boundaries.
whenever my husband falls back into pressuring me to go on events and meet ups with skids because its been a year and lets start afresh crap, i remind him that nothing of their behaviour has changed, their so called apologies mean nothing when they have made no attempt to establish a genuine relationship, respect boundaries, privacy etc
in my situation whats even more crazy is hubbys exwife and her family are into black magic and eldest sd excused her mum seeinn witch drs and making lies that my husband engaged in this black magic voodoo nonsense to target her which they admitted were lies but still excused their mum engaging in it
i told my husband nobody, no parent in their right mind would want their minor kids with his adult kids who condone their mother engaging in black magic and witch drs bs. I certainly wouldn't trust to leave our then 2 toddlers alone with his kids. Hubby claimed he doesn't think they would intentionally harm our kids
when you lay down the facts abc xyz what they have done that supports my belief to stay the heck away, hubby closes because he knows what i am saying is the truth. He's just too proud to admit it.
"Hubby claimed he doesn't
"Hubby claimed he doesn't think they would intentionally harm our kids"
And yet ... wasn't there an incident when one of his kids deliberately gave one of yours something to eat despite being told not to and despite being told it would make the child sick? Sounds pretty damn intentional to me ... Hardly surprising you don't trust them.
Exactly and i called him out on that. After that 1 incident
At my husbands nephew's engagement ceremony where sd's fed my daughter liquified chocolate kept in an extremely hot car at an engagement ceremony, with the smug look on their face, no apologies. Its not rocket science that was an inappropriate thing to do for a 13.5 & 23.5 yr old towards a toddler.
they knew repeatedly to not feed my kids in car because they get carsick and they'll just vomit but they still answer back and say we'll do it anyways to which i firmly said in a condescending "NOOOOOOOO".
it took my husband another 1.5 yrs to finally confront eldest sd and tell her she isn't my kids mum and therefore doesn't get to dictate what she can do with them or answer me back. If
i say no and don't do that, thats the end of it and hubby will support that.
i wasn't gonna take their crap anymore and frankly hubby knows that i refuse to torture myself with their presence, nothing productive comes out of those meets.
I'm sorry for your DH. Mine
I'm sorry for your DH. Mine also feels tremendous guilt for not being around enough for his kids, being an absent parent, not being good enough. I didn't know DH then, but he and BM didn't divorce until the youngest was in high school, so it's not like he missed their childhoods. I don't know where all that guilt comes from.
I can appreciate you wanting to be kind to your DH. That is admirable. But do you really think meeting with this SD will make any difference? She doesn't acknowledge her role in any problem, she expects you to apologize when she caused the turmoil. I think you risk her using this as an opportunity to find something else wrong with you as she purposely misinterprets anything you have to say. I wouldn't do it.
You can't solve a problem you didn't create.
DH wants his family around a holiday table because that's the fantasy in his head. It's not reality. A family meal at a restaurant might be the closest he will get. He might need help mourning the loss of the family he wishes he had.
Dont do it
Or do it and dont expect anything good to come of it.
Do not go fishing for an appology or even for them to understand
Make it purely a presentation of fact. Present the facts with direct intent purely to communicate those facts and make sur Daddy and his dipshit spawn are sitting with you face to face.
Do not allow for deflection, obfuscation, or for htem to draw you into explaining a thing.
State the facts clearly, confidently, in significant scope to highlight HER ownership of those behavioral misadventures.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
When they start stammering, screaming, yelling, crying, etc..., whatever they try, play the "Don't tell me, show me." card and leave them overwhelmed with the facts. End of discussion.
For now. Next time, roll out the same facts and any fresh ones, then close with.... "Apparently neither of you recognize that these facts are generated by your/SD's actions. We will do this as many times as it takes for the behaviors to change. And... the entire family will be brought into this. So don't think that you can avoid having all of this known. Someone will ask you about it and rest assured that any lies you attempt will be countered by the facts. Thank you and have a nice day. Buh-bye."
My advice: Don't go and meet
My advice: Don't go and meet her.
It'll be a complete waste of time. SD will never apologize - that is an absolute certainty.
Instead, tell your H to focus on making your joint lives a priority, for example working on goals you have made TOGETHER. Not HIS individual goal of having you and feral SD interacting so HE can feel good.
Sure, if he wants to have contact with his daughter and family, he can have it outside of your home. You can support him to do that but you are in no way obligated to go with him.
You need to preserve your peaceful home haven.
I wouldn't meet with her. No
I wouldn't meet with her. No good will come of that, and since you're planning to meet with her alone, you'll have no witness to what actually is said when SD starts putting words into your mouth and making you the bad guy.
Why is your husband unwilling to go to therapy? Seems to me that he should do that before he sends you to solve the SD problem for him. This is HIS problem, HIS child. Why would he want you to have to go "make nice" to a person he knows is toxic and acknowledges is one of the most selfish people he knows? Who does that to someone they love?
Agree
His child - his problem.
Thank you everyone!
Thanks to you all for your replies - i'm so overwhelmed with how many of you have helped and so quickly.
So, quick update - I had a very long talk with DH, we have agreed:
We need to postpone the SD23 contact/potential chat for at least a month (maybe longer) so we can decide jointly what will/will not be said and why - however, I will have final say and will lead any discussion. DH will be there (I have explained that i feel she will twist words and manipulate what has been said) DH feels she may feel 'ambushed' by the 2 of us and has suggested that she be offered the option of brininging a friend with her - I think this is sensible as usually if you give her any form of feedback of constructive criticism she turns on the crocodile tears in front of DH.
I will not apologise (And i never had any intention of doing so when i wrote my first message) as I have not done anything wrong and I will not apologise for expressing normal human emotions when someone insists on pushing me to the edge
From the outset, I will state that I do not expect an apology from SD23. Any form of apology from her now is insincere - DH was also very clear on this as he has spoken to her for last year about this specifically and accepts that she does not acknowledge anyone else's feelings (this has been the case with other family members as well - I have discussed her with a psychiatrist and psychologist separately - both independently stated that she likely has Narc/bordeline personality disorder as well as traits of psychopathy)
DH and I will decide between us where the boundaries lie for SD23 - what we expect of any person to enter the house, it will be very clear, concise statements so that she can not claim 'confusion' later. I have been advised (by speciliasts above that for borderline personality we need to maintain very, form clear boundaries and when these are stated the person will try to test the boundaries repeatedly/get upset etc but this is normal and expected of someone with this disorder nad the only to progress is to maintain the boundary and ensure this is a non-negotiable; majority will 'burn out' over 1 or 2 decades and then 'calm down')
We will also state what expectations we have - none of them are related to us, as I no longer expect anything at all from her. The expectations will mainly be about wider family especially more elderly and ill members e.g. when its Grandad's birthday everyone should make an effort to attend and behave in a civil manner during that short perios of time and make it tolerable for everyone present.
I have explained that I have no expectations of her. DH has expectations but is willing to take a more realistic view e.g. he said he no longer expects family christmas dinners at home and will not ask this of me.
We have also discussed DH family/childhood situation - he is not ready for therapy again (he has previously had 2 years of intense therapy because of his childhood and abusive failed previous marriage with HCBM) he accepts that as he was underprotected as a child, his instinct is to overcompensate and he tends to overreact and overprotect even in scenarios that SD23 is blatantly wrong - SD23 senses this and takes advantage. He is going to work on this.
As a background due to her behaviour, overseas family holidays stopped 4/5 years ago. I ahvent bought birthday presents etc for 1 or 2 years. Family gatherings also stopped for a year. So, boundaries have been placed but she keeps testing us by turning up the heat. Unfortunately, there is also a HCBM and toxic, racist MIL that add fuel to fire and potray SD23 as the 'victim'. I fully acknowledge that her family have done her a great disservice and at times I feel nothing but pity for her; but in my heart of hearts i no longer see her as 'family' so it's not really my problem.
Thank you everyone - If/when we have the SD23 discussion and I will update you!
I thank god for the day that I stumbled upon this website - an oasis of reality in a disneyfied society that paints stepparents as villians and expects us to put up and shut up. Thank you for the support x
Its not your responsibility
Its not your responsiblity to fix his kid. I have a similar situation with SD20 (manipulative)and SD18 (anxiety). I have told my DH that since SD20 never apologized to me for telling him to dump me after 8 years together or she would "never speak to him again." Now SD20 is not allowed in our house. She calls him to tell him about what illegal drugs she is shooting up, and to let him know that she can't get a job because she can't pass a background check anymore due to her antics, but other than that - I don't have to deal with her. I REFUSE to deal with her. She is NOT MY PROBLEM ANYMORE.
I worry that this meeting will allow her some new angle to mess with you. You might want to secretly record it - just to have proof of what you did and didn't say. She is a manipulator, so she will try to twist everything and lie about it to her family. Good luck. I wish you the best. Its a crappy situation to be in.
Met with SS32 after years of
www.steptalk.org/forum/parenting/adult-stepchildren/met-ss32-after-years...
This post from There is a light (and her whole blog) might be helpful. There was also an interesting thread on The Holy Apology a few years ago that I'll try to find.
I agree with the PPs - no good will come from such a meeting. This female skid (the girls always seem to be worse) isn't sorry and doesn't want peace. This is just your H trying to force things, hoping some mumbled words will miraculously erase years of ill will and bad behavior. He wants YOU to eat more sh!t so HE can be comfortable.
My DH has accepted (and joined) my disengagement, but has backslid a few times. I finally hit on one question that shuts him down: "What's changed?" It's simple, cuts through the b.s. Brady Bunch fantasy, and reminds him of the truth.
See those parents trying to lie their way through whats changed
When you hit them with the facts and multiple examples often shuts them down. I know my husband will try the "its not ss bad as you make it out to be" to which I usually respond with just because you like to turn a blind eye or remain delusional doesn't mean we have to.
just because you're happy to eat shi* doesn't mean we have to
then hubby tries the "but lets move forward which ends up in me saying thats dependent on 2 people making an effort, yours haven't"
my husband tries then the but you've been o/seas and they been busy. Right so no time for a videocall?? If we matter you'd make a damn effort so quit the bullshit lies and admit that they haven't changed this fake crap.
i've drilled it into hubby how does he think our kids would feel if they knew their half sister tried guilting their existence and my existence for thr pathetic relationship they have with their dad when they haven't made an effort to maintain a relationship and too busy with their manipulative games.
life shouldn't be this toxic. If they do not add to your quality of life and are such a toxic presence on the harmony of your home, you have every right to want nothing to do with them
Here it is:
www.steptalk.org/forum/parenting/adult-stepchildren/apology-skids-251303