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Become more forgiving, or more hardened?

tryingjusttrying's picture

I'm getting tired of myself complaining about the same struggles with SS. Feel free to walk on past this post if you have read my previous posts and don't want to repeat feedback you've already given. But it has been really helpful for me to process different developments in my blended family with you all. I don't know how I would have managed it otherwise.

SS has had new developments recently. All of his friends left town for college. He was really the only one among them that didn't do well in school. It was hard on him because SS saw his friends as a substitute family given that his mom is unreliable and his dad works so much and only sees him part time. I won't go entirely into it, but I think SS has tried to make two of his friends in particular his "special person" who he relied upon to act as his emotional support and favored person. But one of them became out of favor for some reason. Anyway, after they left, SS complained that he was feeling very lonely. But DH and I both hoped that this newfound loneliness would force him to be more independent. In the past, SS never wanted to do anything by himself which is why he never exercised, he doesn't have a hobby, probably has never read a single book outside of class requirements (and maybe not even then), much less just given himself some space for introspection and down time. SS seems to have done with his newfound time what DH hoped, and is actually doing well - he's getting good grades, jogging regularly, is super cooperative, and isn't making demands for money and favors and acting with arrogance as he did almost right up to when his friends left.

Less dramatically, I've seen SS shift in personality before. I suspect he's personality disordered, or maybe he's made a real change? Some people think that all teens are personality disordered, so maybe that was all. Like most people, I want to give others the benefit of the doubt. It is very reasonable to now believe that he's made lasting changes. I do know that the teen years are really tough, and not indicative of future behavior. So I am yet again struggling with how much I should forgive and try to build something with SS or harden my resolve to keep my distance and protect myself.

SS who is now 18 has been nasty and mean to me for several years now. Probably the only time we got along was the first year. It was pretty easy given that I was always bringing treats over, acommodated his preferences, making plans for all three of us, etc. But DH and I went to a concert once on a night when SS (who was 14 or 15 at the time) wanted to spend time with his dad. When we got back that night, SS asked his dad if he could ask me to leave, and almost from that exact moment, SS became hostile, vindictive and aggressive against me. DH did ask me to leave, but he promised me that that he would never ask that of me again, and he kept his promise.

In general, SS was a troubled child and teen. In middle school, the adminstrators told BM and DH that they thought SS had conduct disorder. He has been manipulative, deceitful, he has stolen from DH, and has done very shady things, like trying to pass off counterfeit goods as authentic to sell. At 16, SS was seeing a therapist who frequently cautioned DH and BM that SS needed more constraints and boundary setting, and that he "wouldn't always get away with it." DH doesn't tell me all the things SS "gets away with", so not sure what that meant.

But within a month of all of his friends moving away this past summer, SS has become super compliant, polite, doesn't raise his voice, doesn't push back on requests (to walk the dog, etc.) He's getting good grades in school, and has a part time job that he's pretty much always on time for. If he's turned a new leaf, shouldn't I be supporting that and cheering him on? Instead, I am skeptical and do not atll feel like celebrating him. Now that SS is behaving nicely, I can no longer use that as an excuse. I'm just no into it. I feel awful that I'm not rooting for SS, but I think in my heart and mind, I am not fully able to forgive SS's past deeds. By the way, I express support for SS in words, but I don't really mean it.

I wondered aloud to DH whether it would help the situation if SS apologized for his past behavior. But neither of us think that SS would do that, and I'm not even sure how that would even work.

More importantly, I don't know if tha's what I even want. I suspect that SS is still doing underhanded things. He's still lying for sure, but is not as manipulative. And this is something that I feel bad about accusing him of, but I suspect that SS is still "hacking" his dad's amazon account. DH had changed his username and password in the spring, and the "hacking" stopped. I previously posted about how in August, we were ordering delivery on dh's phone, and when it was SS's turn, he took the phone into his room and held onto it for a long time until DH insisted on getting his phone back. All of a sudden, SS remembered the restaurant's name that he wanted, and gave the phone back. But funny enough, starting in September, DH got "hacked" again, and was billed for about $400 worth of charges from $20-$190 a pop. As far as I know, you can't break into an individual account on Amazon unless you have the user name and PW. DH created a new email just to use for the Amazon account, so I don't know how someone could have obtained that unless they had access to his phone. Ahem. If you read my previous posts, you would also know that SS has stolen from his dad in the past. For the first time ever, I actually confronted DH with the elephant in the room, and told DH that I suspected SS. DH called SS, and asked, quote, "I know it's been a long time since you've done something like this, but did you charge up my Amazon account?" SS denied it, and that was enough for DH. DH didn't want to talk about it further with me because he is highly sensitive about any suggestion that SS is a "bad kid".

But it is so hard to believe that the SS I see now who is quiet, compliant, and conforming to social standards could be capable of violating his dad who loves so much. My mind just cannot sit with this notion.

JRI's picture

Good for SS for acting better but like you, I'd keep being watchful.  I agree expecting an apology would be fruitless.  

Some people- well, there's always going to be tension.  I'll always be wary of SD63 (big time) and YSS54 (less so) due to past incidents and remarks tho we are polite and civil.  In contrast, I love and trust OSS61 who's never given me trouble.  It's just human nature to be cautious of those who have hurt us, whether they are steps or not.

So, I would neither forgive nor harden.  Just see what happens.  Your DH sounds like mine, would rather absorb a loss than confront a thief.

JRI's picture

"Mental health is an ongoing dedication to reality at all costs."

Kes's picture

I don't think SS has changed.  He's had a shock, and is temporarily behaving a little bit better, but my guess is that it won't last. Of course he stole from his Dad, his Dad just doesn't want to see it.  I used to say to DH that I would give BM the benefit of the doubt once she'd behaved well for 3yrs.  Needless to say, she never did. 

MorningMia's picture

What would happen if you had an honest heart-to-heart with SS? I did something similar with SS. It didn't pan out, but I tried. 

tryingjusttrying's picture

I would find that difficult to do. Can you share how you approached it and what you think might have gone wrong?

SS and I did sort of have a "heart to heart" about 6 months ago (?) following an incident, but it did not go well because I don't think his intent was sincere and there is not a whole lot of trust between us.

SS had wanted to stay at our place when it was not his normal schedule, but I reluctantly agreed despite the fact that DH wasn't even home that evening because he was working late. After this incident, DH and I agreed that we would start following the visitation schedule strtictly and no more exceptions would be made. That has helped tremendously.

On that evening, SS decided to invite a friend over, but didn't give me a head's up. He was going to wait until the very last minute to tell me (to technically qualify giving me consideration), but his friend was early, so he only had time to give me a head's up when the door bell rang. This was following several conversations about SS's refusal  in general to give me a head's up when he was coming over for visitation. When SS's friend came over, I was in the middle of dyeing my hair, the house was a mess, and I was just not mentally prepared to have anyone over. DH agreed that it was unacceptable for SS to invite a friend without consulting me, so DH texted SS that his friend couldn't stay. SS was PISSED. That's the only time he ever wanted to have a talk with me.

After his friend left, SS approached me and said 'that was not cool.' He was relatively calm as he has been, so I wasn't sure how to read it. I actually thought he might be contrite, and was tyring to say that it wasn't cool for him to invite someone without telling me. But what he was actually saying was that he thought it wasn't cool that I told his dad what happened and got his friend kicked out. He repeated several times his disappointment that I told his dad in that conversation. I think maybe that's what he does with his mom - he guilts her into keeping secrets from his dad. But I was clear that I would never keep anything from his dad ever.

During that conversation, I felt that he had an agenda, that he was very smooth, and I felt manipulated. It was actually kind of revealing because he articulated to me his experience from his perspective, and we never talked openly like that before. From his perspective, he saw his aggression against me as normal teenage angst, and that a reasonable adult would have interpreted his actions with forgiveness. I'm actually forgetting the details now, but I remember him depicting himself as the victim, and that I was the mean, unsympathetic SM.

Frankly, I did not embrace this "heart to heart" talk and did not make a genuine attempt to open my heart to him. I didn't think he had the right intention. So for my part, my own agenda was to make it clear to him that I wasn't going to roll over and buy into his demands. In particular, I made it clear that I would not keep secrets from his dad and that I had authority in the house. Normally, I try to be as egalitarian as possible, and usually would be against someone asserting a hierarchy over other people. But this blended family situation has really helped me to consider the value of a hierarchy in some situations, especially when I would be responsible if something were to happen to SS and his friend. SS responded by saying that he was now 18 and that he was an adult too. It felt like he was trying to tell me that he was now my equal and that he didn't have to listen to me. That spurred me to really think hard about what him turning 18 means. I actually posted about this and got a lot of clarity at the time (thanks to Rags in particular!). I came to the conclusion that SS turning 18 meant autonomy from our home to establish his own. If he chose to stay at our home, he still had to listen to our authority. I think SS thought it meant autonomy to do whatever he wanted without any of the responsibility.

Perhaps my own agenda got in the way of an opportunity to reconcile. My thought was that I needed to keep my distance and to assert more of a sense of authority, not more kindness. Was this wrong?

MorningMia's picture

We've actually had two. One was several years ago when I drew the line in the sand and said that the skids weren't welcome in our home until I received an apology and saw genuine change after a particularly horrific Thanksgiving. DH called the skids and confronted them about their behavior. SS called me and apologized and we talked about the issues without getting into his mother (the ringleader). He told me then that he thought SD's thoughts, feelings and actions were "very unhealthy." Yet he had followed her bad behavior lead during that holiday. He's a loyal little follower. 

We had another talk around 2019. . .about the fanatical religion his mother and sister were clinging to, about his independence from the cult (I didn't call it a cult to him), about DH and I and our relationship with him, and about self fulfilling prophecies--I was made out to be a bad guy just for setting boundaries and was in their story the reason they "lost" their father. No, the bad behavior on their end and their mother's demands and need for control cut a wedge between them and their father.  During that visit, DH and SS also had a very deep conversation, too. We assured SS that we were there for him. And it was true: he could talk to us about who he truly was without religious judgement and finger wagging. 

We think that, in typical fashion, SS went to his mother and loyally repeated everything to her which (I envisioned the bare swinging lightbulb overhead), as usual, she vehemently countered, turning us into the bad guys once again. Things were never the same after those last conversations: SS got ruder, more distant and meaner.

After the skids' last visit here (only because DH was in the hospital), a relative told me that BM had posted a quote publicly on FB about never trusting a snake or never letting a snake back in.  lol. God only knows what SS and SD said to her about being here. Likely told her I dropped a few F bombs and scared them. Oh, well! 
 

DH says the skids' extreme loyalty to their cult leader mother is based on her being their insurance: a place for SS to live for free, a free babysitter for SD, and funding for the compound they are planning. We don't offer any of that. I think the longtime enmeshment makes them feel unable to recognize that they really are separate beings from her. How awful. 
 

lost causes. I'm done. 

 

tryingjusttrying's picture

I do believe in the idea of knowing "where your side is buttered". In my case, BM hasn't had a full time job in a while, so if SS needs anything, then DH is the go to, and DH is frequently quite generous. I do think that is partly why SS is much better behaved with DH than with BM. In fact, after having said SS has been uber compliant, I found out today that SS refused to do something his mom asked him to do. But the request was also unreasonable. In any case, I think people are generally like that, not just to parents.

It seems to me that despite the conflicts, you have a much better relationship to your SS than I do with mine? My SS would never sit down and have a talk with me about anything important with the rare exceptions as I've mentioned.

But what happened to you is what I'm afraid of. It seems to me that your SS actually took what you said to him and twisted it for ill purposes. So rather there being a net benefit, there's a net harm. In my case, I feel like anything I say would be used against me versus a heart to heart leading to an improvement in the relationship.

MorningMia's picture

It seems to me that despite the conflicts, you have a much better relationship to your SS than I do with mine? My SS would never sit down and have a talk with me about anything important with the rare exceptions as I've mentioned.

I would say we used to have a much better relationship than what you and your SS have, especially when my SS was around the age yours is now. Around his mid-20s, he distanced himself again, came back around in his early 30s, and then went back to the dark side again. He is obnoxious, rude, self centered, ridiculous and mommy-worshipping. Whenever DH confronts him, he says, "I'm a douchebag!" Well, ok. We're all in agreement there. 

 

But what happened to you is what I'm afraid of. It seems to me that your SS actually took what you said to him and twisted it for ill purposes. So rather there being a net benefit, there's a net harm. In my case, I feel like anything I say would be used against me versus a heart to heart leading to an improvement in the relationship.

Well, yes, then trust your judgement. I think ultimately the truth offended my SS. As much as he has tried to be independent of the cult cocoon, deep down he feels indebted to it and fiercely loyal. . . too bad it's toxic. I came to finally see him as a troublemaker. A few years ago when he was visiting, DH had moved my treadmill and accidentally broke off a piece. When I walked in the door from work, 30-something SS couldn't wait to tell me that his dad broke my treadmill. He made it sound as if the machine no longer functioned, and apparently wanted to see me get upset and mad at DH (I didn't).  One of the last times he was here, he went on about the expensive gifts he had purchased for his mother. We haven't seen a gift from him in well over a decade. We are certain that after his last horrendous visit, he went back to mommy and badmouthed us. It's really really old and I've lost all hope. 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Wow, that would cause me to distrust him. I feel like you've given him the benefit of the doubt, and have made an effort to work with him, but it doesn't sound like he deserves your trust. Like Rags says, trust is earned. What I'm seeing is that you're trying to do your part as a SM, but that effort is not being appreciated and at times is being paid with toxicity. I can see it more clearly in reading your post, but I find it so hard to have that clarity and compassion when things like that happen to me.

If I can repay your advice to you, I would definitely keep my distance from your SS and protect yourself!

Rags's picture

Like any bad nonperforming investement, a toxic X and toxic Spawn should be a write off. Throwing more time, money, emotion, into a bad investement is never a good idea.  They are a failed investment.

Good riddance.

Though I feel for your DH in all of this.  No parent likes to see their kids dive into the toilet vortex willfully.  Except for people like the BM in your blended family nightmare.

tryingjusttrying's picture

That's the thing. If SS is only interested in pretending to be nice in front of his dad so that SS can continue to get what he wants rather then actually putting some stake into building his character and relationships with his dad and me, then it would be foolish for me to invest my time and energy.

You're paying attention, Rags. Thanks. Yes, BM is a narcissist, and I was reading that they sometimes willfully sabotage their childrens' esteem and success because if their loved one became successful, then the naricissist would feel intimidated and "less than". They have to keep their loved ones in a one-down position by shaming and belittling them.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

I mean, you could just be polite and observe. Focus on the positive present and future and try not to outwardly dwell on the past. He's either trying to change for the better or is on his best behavior while he plots how to next harm one or both of you. Be hopeful, encourage his positive behaviors, and do what you can to help him become successful and independent (and move out!) But don't let your guard down. 

Rags's picture

Stop overthinking it.  Past behavior is the best predictor future performance.  If it looks like shit, feels like shit, tastes like shit, and smells like shit, it is shit.  He, is shit.

Just because a turd polishes itself does not change what it is. At best, it is just a shiny POS.  No matter how well polished, a turd is shit none the less.

Also, to forgive without a fundamental  permanent change from the one considered for forgiveness is naive.  Forgiveness though granted, absolutely should have to be continuously earned. It lasts only as long as the forgiven maintains the change that earns the forgiveness.

This kid is adapting to minimize his misery. Which certainly while an improvement, is not earning of forgiveness. Contrition, self assessment, and change over an extended (multiple years if not decades) period of time, a mature comprehensive self ass baring review of his bullshit and an actual apology would be a start.  Even if he does that, maintain clarity on the fact that he is what he is.

The person you need to forgive is yourself. Stop with the self inflicted guilt.

All IMHO of course.

Take care of you.

KISS

Give rose

Winterglow's picture

Your DH could have checked his lis of orders to find out what exactly was ordered. I suspect his findings would make it clear who placed the orders.

tryingjusttrying's picture

If anyone knows how this works, I'd appreciate you sharing. But however the "hacker" is doing it, the orders do not appear in DH's orders list. Same thing when his food delivery was "hacked". I just checked on my amazon account, and you can choose to "archive" orders, which causes them to disappear from the main orders list. There is no button that appears to access the archived list very easily, so maybe that's how it's being hidden from view. If DH still has access to his old account, I'm going to suggest that he try that.

But one thing's for sure, these charges appear on his credit card. He considered the possibility whether it was his Chase account being hacked, but since the only illicit charges came from Amazon, he honed in on that.

Winterglow's picture

Would that be on the app? I ask because all of my amazon orders are via the Internet and I can't find that darn option!

However, I went into their help files and there is, apparently,  a "display archived orders" option.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Not on the app, but it can be done on a phone or tablet.

Go to Your Orders and locate the order or item you want to archive. Select Archive order. Your order will be removed from the default order history view.

To view archived orders:

  1. Click the drop-down next to X orders placed in
  2. Select Archived Orders 
  3. Log in to the Amazon website
  4. Hover over the Account & Lists tab
  5. Click Orders

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks to you both. I searched in 'Help' on Amazon and got a different instruction. It said to go to the button at the top of the "Orders" page where you would click a time range, but if you scroll to the very bottom, there is an option "Archived". DH was busy all day, but I wanted to show him that this afternoon

Dollbabies's picture

set up the credit card attached to your Amazon account to email you whenever a purchase is made over X dollars (I set mine to zero so it tells me each and every time my card is used, no matter where it was used. And it tells me where the card is used.) That way there are no surprises when the statement comes in, no "I don't remember" possible. 

 

PushedToMyLimit's picture

SS was able to obtain your husband's full cc # somewhere on his phone while he had it? That way he could place orders directly from his own account and use the card to pay for them. 

Survivingstephell's picture

I have looked at previous years to check my purchases.  Have you tried that option? 

tryingjusttrying's picture

The two main pieces of advice seems to be that I should be cautiously optimistic and be open to progress but still watch my back, and on the other hand be realistic and accept that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. I'm also getting that maybe this is a false dichotomy and that it isn't one or the other. It doesn't have to be forgive all or turn my back. I've been reflecting on your comments, and have come to the view that I'm trying to grasp  for something certain in order to get some peace of mind. I keep questioning my perception of the situation and going in circles. I just want to know which path to take and stick with it so that i can free my mind to think of other things.

I had an insight today. I don't have to obsess over SS. I'm sure many of you have already given that advice, but sometimes it takes the right moment to really get it. I think that me doing so is due to my childhood baggage. My dad was pretty scary, and to feel safe, I was hyper vigilant and focused on him, so that I could try to predict what he'd do and defend myself. But unlike then, no one has any real power over me. Letting SS get to me, a lot of it is my choice. My DH and I are very duty-bound, and we tend to try and meet obligations. I think I've used that as an additional excuse to focus on this person who has been a difficulty for me.

But as people often say here, I had zero influence on his upbringing, and therefore have zero responsibility. I want to give myself permission to let go.

By the way, DH shared with me that he actually gave SS permission to buy things on Amazon, but forgot. It didn't appear on his account because apparently SS had DH's credit card on his account. I don't know if DH plans to continue to do that. So looks like I was wrong about SS in this case. I feel crappy for accusing him.

ETA: I'm on the fence about whether SS did something shady. DH wasn't forthcoming about this latest development until I wanted to show him the archived order idea. SS went to work super early, so the latest they discussed this was yesterday. I asked him why he didn't tell me about it, and he said that it was because he didn't want to bring up the discussion of SS and "bad" behavior with me because of my attitude. But I pointed out that this latest news exonerated SS ,so why keep it a secret? I'm getting the sense that maybe some of the charges were not approved.

Either way, I want to focus on other things, as I said.

Rags's picture

DH "remembering" that he gave SS his Amazon account and credit card info does not pass the smell test. My money is on DH figuring out that his kid is a dirtbag and ripped him off and then not wanting to have to admit it to himself or to you.

Nea

DW and I blended finances on day one, more than 30yrs ago.  If this crap had been a thing for us while raising SS-32, even if one of us wanted to hide it or tolerate it, the other could have filed the fraud complaint, and IMHO would have.

Trudie's picture

...does not sit right with your husband 'forgetting' about the purchases he allowed SS to make. It sounds as if he may be covering up bad behavior? Also, I would be worried about SS having CC information. 

OSD 'stole' thousands from a 'borrowed' CC.

Trudie's picture

...I just realized this...it doesn't sit right that your husband didn't want to tell you because of your attitude. What? This is absolutely not your fault! Nor should you be blamed! There appears to be some major deflection and denial going on. That is not okay.

tryingjusttrying's picture

Exactly! I've been stewing about exactly that. Sadly, I usually just tacitly accept that the problem is my attitude (baggage from my childhood!). But this time I realized that the big issue is that DH gets mad at the messenger, but not the culprit who did the crime. Last night, I got up the courage to tell DH this - I am only telling facts. It's not like I'm making stuff up to villify SS. Why is he not getting mad at SS for creating those facts?

To me, it's just another manifestation of DH's denial. At a certain point last night, DH just turned his back and refused to talk to me. Usually, we communicate very well, but when it comes to SS, he'll sometimes cut me out. He does NOT want a reminder of SS's failings. What is he defensive about? I know part of he's defensive about is the judgement that SS is "bad" (which he was actually sometimes called by adminstrators at SS's middle school), and perhaps the realization that SS is willing to screw him in multiple ways for years and years even after pleas and several deep, emotional heart to hearts after which SS will tell DH in tears how sorry he is and how he'll never do it again.

I'm seeing why I would be pulling my hair out. DH is lying to me to cover up SS's actual behaviors and trying to persuade me that my eyes, ears and intution are wrong. And instead of standing by what my experience is, I gaslight myself too by beating myself up for having unkind interpretations of SS's behavior. I think my path forward is to accept what my senses and intuition is telling me, if DH doesn't acknowledge it, I don't fight him or myself and just move on, and hopefully that will free up my energies just to focus on other things.

At the same time, my SS has improved somewhat over the years, and may I have a chance. But I think I answered my own question: the answer to my own question that I seem to be leaning towards is that I should harden myself, and accept that SS is not reliable. I'm thinking Kes's standard of 3 years would work. So for the next 3 years, I don't plan on having this debate again.

Rags's picture

Kids do not figure out not to stick something in the wall socket until they get zapped.  SS keeps sticking his winky in the wall socket and not getting zapped. That is his idiot daddy's fault. So, facilitate SS's winky getting zapped. If this CC is joint, you file fraud charges and contest the charges with the CC company.

Then see how SS and daddy like the electrocution of their proverbial winkys as they sizzle together.  SS for his direct actions. DH for facilitating the kid's bullshit.

tryingjusttrying's picture

I have to agree with this. But it's looking like DH cannot see this and may never see this.

Trudie's picture

Please, do not betray yourself to allow your husband's comfort. Self-betrayal generally leads to resentment and will not solve the problem! Allow your husband to be uncomfortable! Allow SS to be uncomfortable! (YOU should not be made to feel uncomfortable, gaslit, or scapegoated!) Allow them both to sit in their discomfort. Change will not occur if they are comfortable...or if behaviors are swept under the rug. You deserve to be heard and respected. I hope you will consider my words of 'tough love'...I care.

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks for the "tough love" Trudie. This has all been very helpful. I'm not sure what's different this time, but I'm seeing things very clearly. I'm seeing the manipulations by DH for the first time. There's the comment you noticed, but today, he also said to me very angrily that 'he's not going to stop buying his child things that he needs.' My reaction was to feel very guilty. But then I thought for a second - in no way am I implying that DH should never buy his child anything ever again. That would make me a pretty horrible person. Why would he accuse me of that? I think DH knows that I'm vulnerable to such comments because I'm guilt prone.

DH and I agree that this is really the only thing we have conflict about. The reason he wants to make me feel like crap about this is because he wants to cover for and idealize his child and bury anything that threatens that, and he's willing to sacrifice my mental health to do it. When I see it that way, I am a lot more motivated now to stand up for myself and fight back.

Trudie's picture

...you are right, he is manipulating you. He wants to make you "feel like crap"? You also said he is willing to sacrifice your mental health? None of this is okay! 

I wonder if your husband realizes that not only what he is doing to you is wrong, but additionally he is not setting a good example for his own son? His actions are speaking louder than words ever can. Is this what he really wants to 'say'?

You want to fight back? (I get it, I am angry for you.) Good!  Fight back with integrity and live in the light of your truth, flaws and all. Yes, we all have flaws. Own them! There is no shame in admitting our shortcomings and working to be the best we can be. This includes standing up for yourself and not settling for crumbs. When we respect ourselves, others respect us too. It is time to level up. You've got this! Virtual hugs to you, I am rooting for you.
 

Survivingstephell's picture

He is projecting his emotions on to you.  He doesn't want to feel them so he yells and blames you.  Be his mirror and put them back onto him , where they belong!    Whoever said that they need to feel uncomfortable is correct. Nothing changes until it gets uncomfortable.  

Trudie's picture

I am remembering this, it's a very useful approach.

tryingjusttrying's picture

This makes a lot of sense. I got the feeling that DH is trying to protect himself from the awareness that his only child, his legacy may have undesirable characteristics. He clings on to notions like 'he's still growing but will mature into a fine human being' and 'the circumstances were bad, but if they were good, he would have done better', etc.

And it makes sense that instead of accepting his dsicomfort at the theought his child is stealing from him, he would rather displace the cause of the discomfort onto me.

For my part, I accept his projections because I'm guilt prone. But I'm really starting to emerge from that.

ETA: I just wanted to clarify that DH and I don't yell at each other, unless you're speaking metaphorically. I don't want to sound polyanna because DH and I both have done our fair share of yelling with our exes, and I also think it is super important to express the full range of emotions, including anger. But we have learned and matured a lot, and we don't yell as a form of communication. I yelled at him once in the 7 years we've been together, and he has never, though he can get a little intense and loud. But I do think that we can communicate honestly in most things. I much, much prefer how we communicate over how our exes did.

Winterglow's picture

Does he not understand that HE as the parent, can change those "bad" circumstances by giving guidelines, setting boundaries,  defining expectations, laying down ground rules? Gawd, talk about a cop-out...

tryingjusttrying's picture

Winterglow, that's my point to DH as well. But he made a valid point when I spoke with him. He reminded me that BM had him and still does about 85% of the time, and she made some weird parenting choices. Though he didn't exactly say so, DH was admitting that SS does have behavior issues, and that the damage has been done. DH thinks that she messed up big time in the immediate aftermath of their divorce. DH feels that he would rather go easy on SS and spend their time together showing affection and support. I don't agree with everything he said, but I also understand his dilemma. I will say that SS's rage was so palpable when I met him, it was scary. With my nudging him, DH slowly stopped falling into line with however BM wanted to lay down the law which was in my opinion, abusive and random. But now I think DH has gone too far the other way, and has become too lenient. But if DH had not taken a softer approach, maybe SS would be worse off? SS was rageful and sneaky. I honestly think that without his dad and his nice friends, he could have gotten into real trouble. But I think there is a medium in there somewhere.

Trudie's picture

Instead of blaming BM, your husband needs to take accountability for his actions because that is all he can control. If BM has SS 85% of the time and she is making poor choices and parenting poorly, then BD better step it up his 15% of the time. In a big way! Permissive parenting does not raise functional adults, it raises adults who can not communicate well and expect everthing to go their way. This is not real life in the real world! On the other hand, effective 'parenting' involves teaching and modeling appropriate behavior, setting expectations, and discipline. This can all be done with affection and support! It should be done with affection and support. It is the loving thing to do! The greatest gift you can give your child is the tools to successfully navigate life. This is not accomplished by ignoring bad behavior, allowing them to steal, etc. Parenting isn't easy; sadly many are not up to the task. The kids...and society...pay for it.

tryingjusttrying's picture

I agree with all of this. I believe in gentle, but not permissive parenting, and in cases where the child is boundary crossing, I think it's even more important to have firm boundaries.

SS has become such a smooth operator though. As I was saying, he was looking like he was becoming a super cooperative, dutiful adult. So all good, right? It makes it harder to manage the situation because DH has more straws he can grasp at  now to prove how fine SS is and that DH's method of being permissive worked.

In retrospect, my encouraging him to talk more with SS (seriously, they were just doling out punishments left and right without ever sitting down and talking with him about right and wrong), had a very positive impact in the immediate. It made SS less angry and  feel more recognized, and it reminded SS to pause and reflect on his actions, etc. But there are some fundamentals that are concerning, like lack of empathy and scheming it requires to steal from his dad.

But in the end, DH isn't going to change any time soon, so there's that.

Dogmom1321's picture

From my own experience, SD14 hasn't changed. The reason behind her actions are her personality to a core, and something you cannot change. The lies and rumors she has spread to BM and her friends about me and my son are not forgivable. She has never apologized. If anything, it shows the manipulation even more.

She is fine to my face and makes sure to always say please and thank you when DH is in the room. Tries to strike up conversation and attempt to play with DS4 when grandparents are in town. I refuse to fall for her act. The flip of a switch and her need to "put on a show" is what confirms the personality problem and manipulation. When it's just myself and DS4, she completely ignores us. Refuses to greet and if I say anything, she is confrontational. "Hey, can you pick up your shoes." For example. 

Keep your healthy distance from SKs to protect your peace. That's the only way I have kept my sanity the last 3 years. 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Your SD sounds exactly like my SS. When SS was 14 though, he was very overtly aggressive. The duplicity came later. In retrospect, at leas the overtly hostile behavior was easier to identify and became clear evidence for my own responses. But I find the duplicity the hardest to deal with. My DH gets mad at me if he don't try hard enough with SS, but what DH doesn't see is the way SS is like when he's not around, and that shapes the relationship between SS and me.

This thread was about whether I should keep my distance or try harder to forge a connection, but it seems clear to me which one I should do.It's just that I find keeping my DH's cild at arm's length cold and unfeeling, so I struggle.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

Crazy idea, probably hard to do, but. You could try a hidden bodycam. Get the "real" SS on video. Stop tiptoeing around him. Don't provoke him or be rude but be yourself. I know it sounds crazy, but be yourself in your own home and film his reaction. This idea is probably a pipe dream, since hiding it would be hard, but it's all i've got as far as breaking DH's delusions and showing him how you are really treated. 

Survivingstephell's picture

Nanny cams are a great idea but it still doesn't guarantee DH will accept what he sees.  Denial runs deep in him. 

tryingjusttrying's picture

I have to side with survivingstephell on this. DH wouldn't necessarily accept the video evidence. He actually does have a nest cam up which looks like it's always off. DH had turned it on once when SS and his girlfriend were camped out in our house all day. We were just getting up from a nap upstairs. We literally saw SS and his GF peek into the cabinet where DH keeps his wallet (he still doesn't put it away at nap time or at night). The wallet itself is out of view, but we see him reach into the cabinet, he looks at it for a while, and puts it back. I know that SS was looking for cash which he sometimes grabs out of DH's wallet. The cabinet is not near SS's room and is not on the way to the bathroom ro kitchen. They walk there, look through his wallet, and walks back to his room. I was aware that SS is capable of that, but I was kind of take aback that he would do that in front of his girlfriend and that she was okay with it (she was an accomplice to other stuff too, like ordering a three course meal from an Italian restaurant when DH gave them permission to order a pizza. The bill was over $100. The pizza should have been $20, maybe $40 with drinks and salads.)

When I mentioned this incident recently, DH remembered them just wandering around the house for no reason. In another conversation, dh also told me straight up that all kids take cash from their parents' wallet. DH said that he would be mad and would try to stop it if he saw SS doing it, but that it has to be expected.

Sometimes I feel like we have two very different realities, and it messes with you.

Rags's picture

Bad

He is basically being a turd polishing chameleon when it comes to his shit spawn.  Seeing the kid as he wants rather than as the kid is and marketing the kid as something the kid is definately not.  BM is too convenient of a target and your DH knows damned good and well that he is a shit parent and his spawn is a pile of shit beyond noxious measure.  Because BM fails on her 85% does not give your numb nut DH a get out of jail free card for failing on his 15%.

He needs to stop polishing his turd of a failed family breeding mistake and SAY IT!!!!!  His avoidance is facilitating, nurturing, and amplifying the shit that is this kid. You indicated that "Though he didn't exactly say so, DH was admitting that SS does have behavior issues".  That is worse than legitimately not smelling the shit that some turd of a person is cramming up his nose.  DH is snorting the turd stench up his own nose and wants you and others to do the same.

Meh

Nea

You should have so much higher expectations for your own life than wallowing in this shit puddle of a multi generational shallow and polluted failed family gene pool.

Take care of you.

Give rose

All IMHO of course.

 

tryingjusttrying's picture

I just learned that the mother of the Sandy Hook mass shooter kept buying him guns even though he seemed to have psychological problems, and when her friends (who saw that her child was mentally ill) confronted her about it, she got mad and stopped talking to them. It's so crazy to think that as a parent, you would be so much in denial that you would be blind to your child being capable of killing so many innocent children, as well as yourself. The shooter killed her too!

DH heard the same podcast and we talked about it. I said that I was struck by how defensive the mother was about her child being called out. I told DH that her triggered reaction was evidence to me that deep down she knew he had a problem. DH agreed with me (but didn't take the hint!). I'm not comparing SS to this shooter in any way. Just pointing out an extreme example of child blindness.

Rags's picture

Then daddy has to live reality whether he is around SS when he pulls his shit or not.

Great tools for baring the asses of idiots.

tryingjusttrying's picture

In some ways, It's like I just went in circles and landed in the same place I started. But I think DH is going to back off a bit in trying to tell me how to approach my relationship with SS.

I thought that my becoming clearer and standing up for myself might allow DH and I to have a more objective, honest conversation. But it's like we can't even agree on the facts. And I don't think DH is ever going to come around, at least not in the near future.

I can sort of get it, kind of. My BS struggles with dyslexia, pretty severely. When he hit the age when kids start to read, and he couldn't, he got into so much trouble. Like many kids in his position, he would rather be thought of as bad than stupid, so if he was asked to read out loud, say, he would climb onto a table and dance. Obviously, he got into trouble with both the school and me. The more he was punished, the more he acted out. It was a vicious cycle. At some point, I decided that I was going to stop punishing him, and just hugged him more. Things got better after that. Later I learned that what he needed was a different way to teach him reading, which the school couldn't provide. By fith grade, he calmed down, listened to his teachers, got good grades. Now, as I've said, he's getting mostly A's, a couple of B's in college.

I think that was and is DH's impulse too. When he was with BM, he followed her more punitive approach because she was the primary parent. But then I came along, and I gave him permission to use natural consequences, and to take more positive approaches. Only later did I learn that boundary-pushing kids need additional constraints.

My point is that I think it's hard to figure out what is the right thing to do. And for my part, because of SS and my history, I do think that I'm biased and do not always give SS the benefit of the doubt. But then again, am I obliged to go out of my way for someone who was and still seems to root against me?

I think this is where I've landed: DH is not a reliable source of truth and solutions because his goal is as much about trying to compensate for what SS didn't get from his mom. But I don't have to convince DH of my point of view to do what I need to to keep sane. I want to keep a healthy distance, and take a wait and see approach. But more than anything else, I'm giving myself permission to be free, not just disengage outwardly, but inwardly also. I had that insight that my baggage causes me to focus on the things that I don't want or fear, too afraid to look away in case something bad happens. I want to let go of that.

I'm sure that I'll be back on here again at some point. I always feel that I've come to some sort of understanding, but it never seems to last. DH did tell me that we're probably doing better than most despite the tensions. So maybe that's it, maybe trying to find a solution is the problem.

 

Trudie's picture

...counseling? For you. Just for YOU! A trained ear would be so beneficial; you can privately air your thoughts, get tips on solutions, get tips on how to cope. I hope you do this for you. I care.

tryingjusttrying's picture

I think that would be a good idea rather than play armchair psychologist myself (I tend to psychoanalyze SS a lot).

tryingjusttrying's picture

Just an update. I'm not proud of this, but I checked out DH's text messages. He gave me his phone to send an email, and I couldn't resist taking a peak. I know that's wrong, though I'm pretty sure DH has looked in my phone too. In any case, I saw a message he sent his ex last week, and it said 'J has been using my credit card again without my permission, and I don't know what to do.' She just responded with 'ugh'.

So now I have pretty clear evidence that DH is lying to me in order to cover for SS. Is it so important to DH that I think well of SS? That's kind of weird to me that DH is more concerned about how SS appears rather than what he's actually doing. I think someone gave me feedback in one of my threads before that DH "knows" what he's doing, whereas I thought the problem was that he was in denial.

Maybe now I can stop trying so hard to get DH to see that there's a problem. It seems that he is very aware of it. But it's also clear that he wants to address it in his own way, and keep me at a distance. DH told me that he wants me to stop focusing on SS's behaviors. I actually want this too. He told me that I only talk about SS's bad behaviors, but that I don't talk about his good ones. I want to be more positive, but at the same time, I'm not sure whether SS's recent "good" behaviors are genuine or not. Plus, I have to admit that it's hard to look for the positive when I'm feeling worried about the negatives.

The reason I started this post was because I was feeling terribly guilty for continuing to disengage from SS despite his "chages". But I didn't trust the changes given that it was in the immediate aftermath of his friends going away to college. It feels like SS is filling a void which is just temporary. SS used to steal from dad to buy his friends meals and stuff. It seems like SS sees his dad as a target in particular.

It's hard to be open and embracing of someone that you feel would lie and steal from you or your husband. DH wants me to turn off that part of my brain that sees SS's "bad" behaviors, and try to focus on the positive. I can definitely continue to be polite and chime in positive comments when they share that SS got a job, and got a good grade on a test. But is it really possible to develop an authentic relationship with someone who you do not trust? I don't think I can, and I want to give myself permission to be okay with my gut reaction. My gut reaction might be picking up on the things that DH is keeping from me. So if he isn't being square with me, maybe that's the best thing I have to go by. I don't want to keep struggling with myself for not being caring and supportive enough.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

"SS is stealing from me and i don't know what to do!" "Waaaaaa!"

I want to go all Godfather on him and tell him "You can be a MAN!!" (Slap, slap!)

TBH it sounds like both SS and your DH have issues with honesty. The fact that he sent that to BM and not you would bother me the most. 

Rags's picture

So, SS is a thief and a lying POS.  At least he isn't a drug dealing, child mollesting murderer.  That we know of anyway.  A  lying thief is not good.  So, why pretend that he is?

How is that for +' (accentuating the positive)?

Your DH wants you to join his willfully delusional parade.  Do not do that to yourself.

Why do you remain with this idiot and his lying thief of a son?  He is failing your partnership.

Please explain that to yourself.  You are apparently nearly fully driven by guilt and guilt seems to be your primary decisioning tool.

Unknw

Please take care of yourself and... TAKE ACTION!!!!  You are doing the frog in the pot basking in the warmth just waiting for it to start boiling thing. Why?

MorningMia's picture

Your husband is gaslighting you and lying to you. As a married couple, you two should be speaking honestly and freely with one another, confiding in each other. Trust all the way around seems to be the central issue.  This is all so unfair to you. There you are questioning yourself and wringing your hands half the time because of two gaslighting liars. I'm sorry! 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks for this note. You describe my distress exactly. I'm questioning myself, my perceptions, my decency because I'm seeing these unsavory behaviors and actions which DH is appalled by based on his own distortions to fit in with his image of what SS could be,

I was reading an article about trust and distrust. When you've become chronically distrustful of someone, you tend to scrutinize their actions and behaviors, and you tend to exaggerate and hyper-focus on their negatives. I have to admit that I'm guilty of this. Hopefully, disengaging more successfully will help me be more objective. But whether I do or not, it does not take away from the fact that DH is in denial of some fundamental facts and that is not in the best interest of SS. I think it's going to take time to get there, so I just have to focus on myself for now.

Trudie's picture

...there is a reason you are 'chronically distrustful'! You have a reason to scrutinize your SS's actions and behaviors, because he has repeatedly given you one. You sound like a reasonable person who also considers what your part may be in all of this; the fact that you are able to do this tells me you are not likely the problem. 

Go with your gut! You know. Your husband knows.

Take care of you!

Rumplestiltskin's picture

I can't believe that pop psychology and gaslighting dirtbags have convinced you that your being "chronically distrustful" is anything other than a normal reaction to them being *chronically UNtruthful!" 

tryingjusttrying's picture

This is a good point, and I agree for the most part. I don't want to gaslight myself, which I tend to do, but I also want to make sure I'm doing my best to be guided by decency as far as possible. I think that distrust is justified here, and I will definitely remind myself that feeling distrustful is a very normal response to untrustworthy behavior. But I find myself unable to sometimes keep that at bay and will even interpret innocuous behaviors in a bad light. For example, SS is desperate for more family relationships since both his mom and dad have very few ties left. His grandmother has dementia though and so he's unable to have a meaningful relationship with her. But when we visit, he's very solicitous towards her.

Meanwhile, internally, I tend to reject the interpretation that he's being nice. Instead, my mind wanders to when he was 15, I told him that I found it very sweet how doting Grandma G. was to SS. He replied by saying that he wishes she could live closer because he knows she would give him lots of money. This was before I got to know him, but I thought it was weird that he would bring up getting cash in a conversation about getting love. That is crude and materialistic which I found unnerving. But he also does love and care about her, which because of my distrust, I tend to poo-poo or brush aside.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but isn't that me distorting SS's behaviors to fit in with my distrust? Is it possible for anyone to be able to reject the SK's bad behaviors but embrace and love the person? My DH seems to be able to do this, and I think that's exactly what he'd like me to do. Or is it too much to ask of the SM to accomplish this? My reaction to push SS away (metaphorically) feels pretty primal. Maybe it is a fomr of gaslighting to ask myself to switch that off.

Trudie's picture

...you have it. The fact that you are putting conscious thought into your feelings shows this. You have thought it through. You have considered the options. You still think SS is not on the up and up. Go with your gut.

Yes, that is a really gross comment to make about one's grandmother. Perhaps he "loves and cares for her" because of what she can do for him. Many people operate this way. The fact that he mentioned money...2 + 2 = 4.

DH is able to reject his son's bad behaviors because it is his son and he is not able to see the situation clearly. (Not all bio parents do this. Many are able to see faults in their kids or family and recognize that there is room for a teaching moment. This is what one does when they want their kids or family to be the best they can be.) In my opinion, it is ridiculous that he would expect this of you! There is a reason you want to push SS away. As mentioned, go with your gut.

Winterglow's picture

He doesn't know what to do? All he has to do is declare he's lost it and make sure SS knows he "lost" it so he doesn't make any more purchases. If he does then it's all on him. He will be charged with theft and there wl be nothing his father can do because it will be out of his hands.

I also find it troubling that he will confide in his ex but prefers to lie to you 

Survivingstephell's picture

It's hard when your own bios are normal , upstanding citizens and the skids have criminal traits.  Now flip that and imagine the opposite. Your bio is the criminal one and your skids are the normal upstanding people.  It can be a heavy burden to carry in a second marriage( or 3rd or more). 
 

My YSS is in trouble with law now.  BM's parenting is now coming back to haunt her.  DH wasn't allowed much influence.  He is 26 this month, thinks he is 17, doesn't want to grow up and refuses help for his drug issues.  Untreated mental issues.  He is just a hot mess.  He's a typical basement dweller we see on here.  He lives with BM and he is her problem.  She is making it worse by not giving him tough love, instead wanting to hide these issues so her image as a parent is not tarnished.  He's the sacrificial lamb on her altar of narcissism(cluster B issues)  My DH has to live with this. A huge failure of a son, that he can't help.   
 

OP, we all know the road your SS is on doesn't bode well for a successful life. His parents have failed him immensely.  The question for you is how to limit the drama from your life.  How to protect yourself financially from this, and keep your sanity in this marriage. 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks all. I agree that DH lying to me and then reaching out to his ex with the truth is a betrayal. I do not like that at all. But as many of you know and have advised, I try to stay out of disciplining SS, and I chalk this incident up to being a side effect of that. They sometimes group chat, and I'm left out, so I accepted a long time ago that I would sometimes be outside of their loop. I am okay with that and this latest incident because I am very good with not being a part of their chats about SS.

I understand that DH sounds like an "idiot", but then again, you're only getting a picture of him based on my grievances about bad things that happen as a result of our situation. He does have flaws, as do I, and it sometimes takes time to become aware of them. This discussion board has really helped me to see what my blind spots are. It's kind of amazing actually to know that I function with assumptions that when made clear, I don't like or agree with.

Thank you for sympathizing with me. It helps me a lot to hear others say that I'm being gaslit, and to be reminded that my response to wrongdoing is not wrong, but the wrongdoing is wrong.

Nonetheless, DH is very much wrapped up in his truth that SS's behavior is not so bad, and that I'm the problem if I choose to focus on his bad qualities. DH does not generally blame me or try to shame me for speaking my opinion. He hears me out, and supports and defends me. So what I complain about in this post cannot be generalized to his entire character. It sounds like survivingstephell understands what it might be like to be the parent of a child who is going down the wrong path and can't do anything about it.You still hope, and hope is not necessarily refuted by facts (because it is by definition counter-factual).

DH does talk to SS and puts down consequences. For example, he's making SS pay him back for what he stole. The last time SS took his credit card and made charges earlier last year, DH also took away something SS really, really wanted (but then later did give it back). So DH might be gaslighting me, but he does take steps to mete out consequences, and also talk to SS about the effects of his actions - the breach of trust, the hurt it causes, etc. But DH refuses to acknowledge that this might be a character thing, and that it wasn't just a one off. I get frustrated that every time some weird charges happen that DH looks at me like I'm crazy for thinking it might be SS, and then him trying so hard to cover for him when it does turn out to be SS.

A huge priority for me going forward is to trust my own perceptions, and not look to DH to agree with me as to what is true. That will help me disengage, to free up my energies, and to stop beating myself up for not seeing SS as DH does and wants me to.

MorningMia's picture

But DH refuses to acknowledge that this might be a character thing, and that it wasn't just a one off. I get frustrated that every time some weird charges happen that DH looks at me like I'm crazy for thinking it might be SS, and then him trying so hard to cover for him when it does turn out to be SS.

A huge priority for me going forward is to trust my own perceptions, and not look to DH to agree with me as to what is true. That will help me disengage, to free up my energies, and to stop beating myself up for not seeing SS as DH does and wants me to.

Then don't discuss SS's thieving with your DH unless it impacts you directly (steals from you or impacts the financial well-being of your household). If DH mentions strange cc charges, don't engage. Your DH apparently "needs" to be victimized by his sociopath son and does not want to intervene (as a parent should) in a very concerning chronic behavior. 
Your DH is doing his son a major disservice, and this will not go well. It's not up to us to "save" people who don't want to be saved. 
Meanwhile, there you are. Please do disengage. 
My DH probably sees the truth about his kids 95% of the time. He openly says, "SS is lying" or "SD is hiding something," and does not try to rationalize or deny the behavior. During that other 5%, I do not engage in his fantasies. "Uh huh," is my normal reaction or my newly acquired "glazed over look." Rarely, DH will say, "SD doesn't hate you....she just...." and I snap back, "yes she does." Conversation over. I'm not engaging in arguments, disagreements, or lies and fantasies about my rude and hateful skids. I know what I know and I trust what I know. 
 Your SS sounds very troubled and your DH will likely one day deeply regret enabling him. 
"Not my circus; not my monkeys" until it becomes your circus. Hopefully, it will not. 
 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks Morningmia. My DH tells me that SS doesn't hate me either. And now that SS is polite on the surface, DH has "evidence" to support his claim. I think that they say that to take the wind out of our sail. It's kind of gaslighting to deny us the one reason why they could be treating us badly. Anyway, I think that's very good advice. I can't change DH's attitude, so I just bide my time until maybe one day he'll have to acknowledge the shady behaviors and SS does in fact change.