At what age do you think these kids become a lost cause?
I had read somewhere, a long time ago. That you have until a child is seven years old to shape what kind of person that kid will be, and after that you are stuck with what you've created. Obviously, you can modify individual behaviors past that, but that's the age.that a persons personality, and what makes them fundamentally them, becomes set at age seven.
I became the online's mother figure for my skids when ss was 3.5 and SD was 4.5, so I thought I had several years to help them and undo what their bio moms had done. But here we are at 10 and almost 9 years old and they haven't made any progress. I have managed to change individual behaviors, but it only last as long ss there's a looming consiquence. As soon as your back is turned, they are just as bad as they ever were. So the past 6+ years has do e nothing to ultimately make a difference. SS still have zero self motevation or drive, perfectly content to fail ay everything and acccomplishcnothing, and SD is still a mean spiteful, self centered bully. I haven't helped who they are on the inside at all.
Is it too late? Was it too late the day I met them?
That you have until a child
That you have until a child is seven years old to shape what kind of person that kid will be
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I really think that is a load of bull pucky. I think they are being shaped all the way up to at least 20. My DD was an angel at age 7. But a devil at age 13. Then back to angel at 14. Devil at 15. Then finally angle at 16 and beyond. She is now 24 and a VERY great person. I sudder to think what would have happened if I would have givin up at parenting her when she was being a devil at 15.
You kind of proved her point
You kind of proved her point though...that your kid was an angel at 7 and then went through ups and downs, but now at 24 she's back to an angel...thus, what she learned through age 7 is really what she ended up being after all
I don't think there's a
I don't think there's a "switch." You can send a kid to military school/boot camp and if the parents are consistent with that type of structure, then the kid can turn out alright.
I think parenting is like gardening. Constant work, snipping, pruning, fertilizing, watering; then the good harvest. If you let your garden just sit there with no work, the weeds and plant diseases/fungus come in, and you have a great big MESS!!
I think GG's kids were a lost cause the first month into the breakup. The Behemoth and her ENTIRE family including one of GG's own brothers practically played subliminal PAS messages day and night. She also denied GG any real visitation. By 2, 5 and 7 they were a lost cause.
"You can send a kid to
"You can send a kid to military school/boot camp and if the parents are consistent with that type of structure, then the kid can turn out alright."
I tried to find a military school or boot camp for SD15 and there truly aren't any anymore. All of the boot camps were forced to close down due to potential lawsuits. THe only ones that still exist are for teens who have been arrested and committed serious crimes.
There are very few military schools around now and they are elite prep schools, not for troubled teens and require the teen to want to be there, pass admissions tests and follow a code of conduct. It is very easy for a teen to get kicked out.
Unfortunately, I found that there are very few options for parents of teens who do not want to voluntarily enter a school/camp/program. There are residential psychiatric facilities, but those are for kids who are seriously mentally ill and provide treatment not strict discipline.
The behavior modification schools (aka therapeutic boarding schools) are restricted by laws and the need to keep their licenses. If a child causes enough problems, they're sent home since it's too big of a risk for them.
Most of the admissions counselors I spoke to said I needed to first put SD15 in a wilderness program that would convince her to want to change/behave/improve her life and only then would they admit her. But the wilderness programs wouldn't take her since she has a habit of running away.
Re Miliatry...Im ex army and
Re Miliatry...Im ex army and what happens in them horrible halls of hell, is the 'seco's take away EVERYTHING.....which kind of breaks you....they tell you when to eat, sleep, talk, move, wake, and how to eat, sleep, talk, move, walk, wake, clean, brush your teeth...and in the end your head spins and you start to appreciate that they are feeding you the food required for being told to run run run run fight shoot guns etc etc....I always felt I was in a POW camp...just doin my time...and yes....most parents will admit how they had been tryng to bring their child up right for 18 years,....yet boot camp did it in 3 mths....
I dont know about the 7 year suggestion but I do know that your child or skid, can be doing the opposite of what you tell them continually until they turn 25...once they turn 25 most children/adults start to take what you have screamed at them all them years and do as you say....
issue is....when you have a psycho BM or bio father who isnt consistent, or makes rules and law that isnt logical....the child cannot follow them..and they get very mixed up...i.e....you tell the child to abide by these rules and be nice...s...then next breath BM is a bitch from hell to all....the child is stuffed then....they will end up a bitch too even after the age of 25...
and....they age of 29 is when they usuallly stop taking the drugs etc....apparently at that age they just get sick of it....
To be sent to boot camp, you
To be sent to boot camp, you have to volunteer for the military No one can be forced to go. If you want to leave, you can. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is now at these programs for troubled teens as well.
Camps/schools/programs for troubled teens are more afraid of these kids and what they can do to destroy their businesses than they are actually helping these kids learn rules and discipline.
Honestly, parents and anyone at these types of camps/schools have lost almost all their power over their kids and they know it. When kids are placed in these programs, the reaction is not “I need to do what these people are telling me to do” - it is “they don’t have any right to tell me what to do”.
The options are so limited when dealing with a teenager like this.
I didn't mean to imply that
I didn't mean to imply that you could stop parenting at that point. But that after a certain point there were fundamental aspects of someone's peronality that couldn't be changed. Like if a person is generous, or kind, or motivated, or spiteful. People (esp teens) can exhibit shitty behavior, but still be a good person on the inside, or could be cold and heartless, but put on the front on the outside to fool people.
When I really think about it, all my siblings are basically the same people that we were as kids. Yes, our outward behavior has changed, and we've grown as people..... But deep down we have the same tendancies and personalities as we did as kids. My sister is still very self oriented, dominating and passive agressive, I am still very passive, shy and eager to please, my brother (before he passed) was still very happy go lucky, super friendly problem solver.
Peanuts you have good point-i
Peanuts you have good point-i think some inherit personality tendencies will remain, yes.
Auteur, i love the analogy, it is SOOO TRUE!!!
"I think parenting is like gardening. Constant work, snipping, pruning, fertilizing, watering; then the good harvest. If you let your garden just sit there with no work, the weeds and plant diseases/fungus come in, and you have a great big MESS!!"
What happens when you have a big mess though, take a light to it and watch it burn? LOL
I disagree to a point. That
I disagree to a point. That is because of our situation. In our situation, DH was the primary parent (as far as both discipline and affection) due to PB's mental instability and the tendency in his line of work to be laid off often. This happened until they were about 7 or so, maybe a little younger.
Him and PB finally broke up and later, he met me.
Now SD18 is completely PASed out (weirdly enough, it seemed like almost overnight when she was about 16). And SS17 has quit responding to attempts to communicate as well.
I just fear that SD will
I just fear that SD will forever have this meanness in her heart. That even if she someday can learn to bite her tongue and censor her action, that nastiness will always.be there under the surface. And that SS will forever do the absolute bare minimum and never amount to anything in life, becuase that drive is just not in him.
Around 13 is when everything
Around 13 is when everything changed for us with SD. I personally believe that after that point they are "cooked" as DH puts it. They are who they are....
I believe in the end, and
I believe in the end, and this comes from a mom of seven, people (not just kids) will only do what they get away with. They have to learn long term consequences not just the looming immediate ones. This is what fails to occur when parents forgive them too quickly, clean up their mistakes etc. Things like:
They lie about someone and it's very soon forgiven and forgotten
They don't do their homework, so a parent does it for them
They act irresponsible and a parent makes excuses for them
They are mean to another and a parent looks the other way repeatedly.
They are allowed to use affection to manipulate people. (girls do this alot)
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with letting a kid know that you are mad at them and that they will NOT BE ALLOWED around you or to talk to you because you aren't over it. Let them know that you don't LIKE WHO THEY ARE BEING. PERIOD. It hurts but they change. Whenever one of my kids would act anti-social, mean, etc I would exclude them from my life for a while. I always let them know that type of behavior will one day leave you with no friends or family, so this is just practice.
^^^^LIKE^^^^
^^^^LIKE^^^^
Thats so good I wanna print
Thats so good I wanna print it out and put it on the fridge door.....
Not to knock the importance
Not to knock the importance of good parenting but sometimes children are just born with certain personality traits that just don't get changed.
I've seen multiple families (intact even) with terrific parents that have raised wonderful, wonderful children EXCEPT for the occasional child that is just awful. And I mean awful - jail, drugs, etc. I don't think there is one thing anyone could have done to change what was innately in the child.
I've taken some flack on here
I've taken some flack on here for calling my SD15 (then 14) a lost cause, but its completely true. The amount of damage her drug addicted mentally ill BM did was too much for anyone to fix, especially all the damage to her brain from doing drugs and drinking during her pregnancy. She lived with her wackjob BM for 6 years who had a psycho boyfriend who abused her. This girl is not normal and will never be normal. She doesn't respond to anything in a rational way nor has any sort of human emotions or empathy for anyone. Mental illness is hereditary and I'm certain SD15 will be diagnosed as bipolar.
My DH tries so hard to "fix" her, but the damage has already done and the more he tries, the more heartbroken he is and it's a waste of time, money and effort even trying.
When we took FSD in to see a
When we took FSD in to see a councelor last year the councelor told FDH and I that personalities are typically developed between the ages of one and three. This is the time where things like personality disorders are developed. Once their personality is set, that's how they are.
A personality is how we perceive the world around us and our interactions with others. I've told FDH that I am worried that FSD has inherited her mothers personality disorders. She is very mean, dominating, rude, controlling, does not interact with other kids on a socially acceptable level, lies, steals, manipulates, and has to be the center of attention all of the time. She sees the world as being all about her.
On the bright side even though you can't fix a personality disorder you can teach them proper skills on how they should interact with others. FSD is in a friendship class at school where they are teaching her things like how to treat other kids nicely and how to interact with them on a socially acceptable level and she is currently seeing a psychiatrist.
Your SD sounds exactly like
Your SD sounds exactly like mine. She is that stereotypical "mean girl" at school, and she has absolutely no remorse for anything she does.
The only way to stop a mean
The only way to stop a mean girl is to beat her at her own game!!!
Grown up men girl time. Invite friends to join in.
My neice is eight. My sister (her mom) is pretty much a physical wreck, very sick. My neice sees her as a victim and literally picks on her. She will physically fight her at bedtime, spit on her etc. My sister has a horrible marriage with a dh of 33 years who is an idiot.
So, when I go visit, Karma (her name is appropriate here) will try to get close to me. Sit on my lap etc. Cuz I'm the cool one. But, I stop her. I push her away and tell her that I don't like how she treats my sister and she needs to just stay away from me. I act like a mean girl to her. (to a point) She gets it. It's just that I'm not around very much and it's not my job to do this. But the point is, mean girls can be fixed. I fixed plenty in my days.
i'm not the same person i was
i'm not the same person i was at 7 years old. i'm much more mature, see things in a different light some i still agree with
imo the phrase "kids become a lost cause" is bs
NO child is a lost cause, the parent just fucked up in parenting.
and everyone can always change, even 20, 30, 40, 50,.........year olds
The age of 7 is arbitrary.
The age of 7 is arbitrary. You can't start at 6 and then cram in a year of goodness and turn a child around. The fact is, even "good" parenting can go awry. A baby needs to bond with parents...We put them in child care at 6 weeks. A baby needs interaction...We put them in front of a tv. A baby needs nutrition...We feed them crap. Truth is, babies come out affected already because of all the toxins they get from mom- even IF mom never took a drug. Eating tuna can put mercury levels through the roof! We inject WAY too many vaccines into our kids, put them on drugs because the food we are feeding them is making them hyper, aggressive, manic, etc.
And THEN we want to blame someone else when the kids are out of control by 4. The real problem here is that instead of looking at the big picture, when parents divorce, they blame each other for their child's problems rather than looking at the things going into the child's body and trying to improve that. Even some of you sparents beside yourself because you have tried "everything" to no avail, have no clue that these kids are chemically induced to behave a certain way because of the very foods in YOUR house.
THEN we have the crazy bparents who participate in PAS, are on drugs, guilt parenting, etc. The truth is that we don't have a problem with kids until they start talking back, and by then, they have already been seriously neglected. So you aren't undoing what the bm has done. You are undoing what society has programmed us into believing that "good parenting" is.
You don't need a wilderness program if you regularly take the kids out in nature. Nature does a LOT for kids, heck, for adults even. People go crazy when everyone around them is constantly trying to control them. Imagine a kid having a mom, a dad, a sm, a sd, teachers, bus driver, baby sitter, etc. Sometimes they just need to get out and get away from it all. Sometimes everyday. Think about what you need as an adult. Hate your job? Or ever been around someone who does? They are miserable people. Yet we expect kids to act better, even though they probably hate every waking minute at school, or worse, at home.
^^^^^ OH Yeah.....you hit the
^^^^^ OH Yeah.....you hit the nail on the head.....exactly the sort of stuff I constantly preach around here....^^^^^
Eg...
As an Australian, I was quite anul in making my kids go camping....with me...(father had pissed off ages ago) My kids were hanging around their mad friends all school year....then after a few days with just me they started being OK again....in fact, you could see the looks on their faces loose that scowl as soon as you drive away one more hour from the city....once in the outback, or camping on a deserted beach somewhere...WITHOUT POWER OR CELL PHONE SERVICE....kids are great again...they enjoy the outside, the fresh food, the sun, the beach, the just sitting and reading...and once them batteries on those stupid psp etc run out....blissssssss....they even start doing what you say....
I used to take my 3 kids away like this 3 times a year....they still talk about how it was a near death experience for them...that it was the worst thing I could have ever done to them...but Im thinking it taught them to appreciate that the best things in life are free, and how to relax....
Oh wouldnt it be good if we could live in the jungle without power or tv cities or junk food.
I could live that life! I
I could live that life! I wanna be where you are!
Oh I left it so I could be
Oh I left it so I could be here in the USA with the DH
Its Ok...I know how to catch a plane and go back there when I need to clear my head ... just need to teach my DH how to be aussie cos he still has issues on how to enjoy lying around doing nothing
Not sure if my SD17 is a lost
Not sure if my SD17 is a lost cause, but I know that if she had stayed with DW and me that she would be. I just posted about her moving in with her father - hopefully that will straighten her out. Regardless, she had NO chance as long as she was living with my DW as the primary parent, because DW is a permissive "friend" parent.
You really can love them to
You really can love them to death. Neglectful, distant and irresponible parents are horrible. But, enabling, entitling, excuse making, weak, coddling parents do MORE TO DESTROY a character long term, by far. Once someone, even a child, feels superior to other, that's a difficult cat to get back in the cage. I catch my husband with our eighteen month old screwing up all the time. I have to remind him and show him how damaging it is. Even a little baby her age. He changes her diaper, she kicks, he gives her something special to bribe her into holding still.
I change her diaper, she kicks, I put her outside the door and shut it like Dino on the Flinstones. She cries and begs to come back. She hugs me and lays down to change her diaper. End of it. Bad behavior + consequence = Improved character. I just found out we have another one on the way. Didn't expect this at 46! But, now there will be two little ones and some competition. Maybe he won't be so easy on her when she's trying to hit a newborn! Anyway, I think that coddleing and spoiling are what is wrong with the whole freakin' nation.