Sd25 upping the ignorance.........
Oh my, i need to rant too sorry!!!!. Basically i dont live with my partner but we are committed adn plan to soon...Anyway not content with all the nasty petty acts towards me including cutting me out of her wedding pics, his SD25 has now asked him to babysit on one of the only 2 nights we spend together a week but doesnt want me to go, and he has agreed!!!!!!!!! WTF, his reasoning is if he does it this way then next time he can say im not to be excluded, but he cant see why i have problem with it. Its so obvious she is calling the shots, asking a favour then dictating the terms, and he for a peaceful life ie no fallout with the witch, is going along with it. He finds it far easier to fall out with me (btw ive not done anything against her apart from love her dad)than her, and if it comes down to it she will come first. Not sure how much to take, apart from when shes in the picture our r/ship is great. My kids like him, the rest of his family like me, its just her. how can i get him to see what she is doing and why it upsets me when he goes along with it...He doesnt think she has issues, just that "well we are close!" By him doing what she asks, the message he is giving is that it is me that is the problem here. SD wants an exclusive r/ship with her dad, why her hubby puts up with it dont know. Anyway i know theres not much i can do apart from walk away and then shes won. Hopefully with some reflection he will see shes out of order and understand why it cant happen again. Im not planning for it to become a habit!!.
ah thanks for the words of
ah thanks for the words of wisdom..i did LOL at "sounds like he's her bitch". A few months agao they ahd a big fallout, ending in him walking out, she didnt contact him for several days, then her hubby contacted my partner saying SD needs him etc etc. My partner then contacted SD, they spent a day togtehr etc etc. So yes, i think he is worried about losing her by standing up to her. Im not planning to let is be a regular thing, and i ahve to beleive he wont let it either. I guess give him the benefit of the doubt this time, although i have very strongly made my feelings known. Its the idea of her smygness, knowing shes "won" and her dad will put her needs before his or mine. I only hope karma will visit her soon, perhaps baldness or a vile skin condition???.
i will look on Amazon later
i will look on Amazon later as i will have time on my hands...and thanks, im notignoring the advice, i can see how things will spiral out of hand, especially as she ups the pressuer to ruin our r/ship, and i intend to make my point. Also should this not be a one off then yes our future looks decidedly shadey. i totally agree that he is contributing to her belief that she is special as is her hubby by not bothering that she de-masculates him everytime to goes to daddy for advice and help rather than her husband!!. Its a pity her hubby is so hooked on her, otherwise we could have formed our own support group lol!!
He's giving up a night with
He's giving up a night with you, the woman of his dreams, to do some childcare. this is not of his own bio child, but a grandchild who has no reason to need to be cut off from you, the sharer of his future domestic life. If he develops a separate relationship with the grandchild then when you marry and move in together, what role does the relationship with the grandchild play? Is it always to be had separately, taking him away from his own home and family with you, or is the grandchild to come in as a spy/troublemaker? You need to decide whether you would be able to accept for him to go to and fro for the rest of her minority, in which case then fine, you can disengage and proceed with that. If this is not what you want, tell him that that is the position now and then have a little break in the relationship -- after all there is no point seeing him again until after he has done his little experiment, if he wants to, and got to the point that he will tell his daughter it cannot be repeated.
No you don't have to believe
No you don't have to believe it! You can withdraw until he's finished that part of his plan!
Hi nosteppingstone, re "If
Hi nosteppingstone,
re "If you feel he is worth it, I'd work on maintaining the status of Alpha Female in your SO's life. It's tricky, but can be done. I'm a living example of that. FDH knows he gets his needs met by me. Not his daughters. It's the way things are supposed to be."
Any tips on how i can do that just now?. Thanks
Honestly I agree with OBRW.
Honestly I agree with OBRW. Because you love him and have children of your own you will bend over backwards to negotiate and have a quiet life. I did this for years and years with my 3SKs. I like the younger 2 but OSD is the one like yours. 6 years into the marriage I even came back by train to my home town from a holiday hundreds of miles away, standing room only, 3 train changes, with our 3-month old baby in a pushchair and our 5 year old standing with a gently bleeding head wound (big wound, small and not dangerous bleed into bandage, but WTF!!!), so that DH and 3SKs in their teens could all be in the car together, the car not being able to seat all of our party. YSD had offered to do the journey with me and the baby so that my injured 5-year-old could rest in the car. Oh no, DH was against that because he said he could not prevent OSD, who was in a foul teenage mood at the time, from bitching at my 5-year-old whilst driving a total of 3 kids back. It's now 8 years later and that still hurts, so much. My children's comfort meant nothing to their own father!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He claimed not to be able to control the spite of a 13-year-old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I let it happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :O
Despite being called Poodle, English Rose, I am really not usually a bitch and my earlier advice was not given to you because I have a personality disorder. The point is that if you let people insult and dishonour you, and then they do it and see you can tolerate it, there will be nothing to stop them doing it again and again and again apart from their own conscience and consciousness -- which is already proven to be a little defective. I began to see that my allowing DH to do this sort of thing was like forgiving an alcoholic or drug user who has hit you. You can help people to give up or control addictions, but only at one remove and not when in a direct interdependence with them.
Eight years later you are
Eight years later you are still angry at DH for placing you and your small children on train instead of the 13 year old entitled brat. Can't blame you one bit!
About a year after I married DH we went on the vacation from hell with SD and her friend. SD was 17 at the time. For the entire trip I put up with her sulking, insults and at times even physical abuse, and to keep the peace I did nothing. In retrospect I should have taken a train home and kicked the lot of them out of my home for good. In the 20+ years I've been married to DH there have been so many instances of abuse they are too numerous to recall. When there is no end to the wounding to our soul, this is how PTSD is born. Because the perpetrators never ask for forgivness or take responsibility, we continue to relive these experiences with the same intensity as when they originally occurred. The best thing that ever happened to me was when I finally found the courage to stand up for myself and disengage from SD. It has been over a year and I am finally starting to heal and this site had been one of the greatest motivators in that healing. Yes, I remember how awful it was that I was thrown under the bus so DH could 'deal' unrealistically and illogically with his guilt, but now there is a difference. I place myself first - it's my turn. Odd how DH has stuck around rather than leave as SD had assumed (or led to believe) he would. SD and DH are no longer allowed to scatch at the wounds they inflicted. The intensity of past abuse is abating somewhat. SD does not have any room in my life, and for my sanity it will have to remain that way.
Is there any way you can disengage from SD? And for your own sanity and the safety of your children you need to take a stand - if you haven't already.
Ah youre all great, you make
Ah youre all great, you make me feel so much better, just being able to vent and know others can empathise.
I hope to hold on in there just now, she has upped the ante over recent weeks, but this apart from the photo incident is the most direct, and im hoping that my SO cant fail to see it. Im not a soft touch but do try to keep the peace, and knowing my partner is still with me despite S/D obvious wishes, in a way shows he hasnt "done her bidding" by still being with me so to me this new action is a more subtle way to undermine our r/ship. As we dont live togther, i can say my piece and leave, which i plan to if it becomes more than what it is just now. Being the bigger person-again- like ive said, i will "let" let him do it this time, as hes not going to not do it at this late stage, but i think it gives me huge negotiating power, as how can he say "she doesnt have issues" etc when she is asking him favours & expects him to exclude me. To me this is concrete proof she has issues & is ignorant, (he tried to excuse the photo incident by saying "maybe it was birth parents only") I imagine or hope that the next time she infringes on my time with him, he will say its not on, and at some point she has to either be able to be in my company or she wont see him during times im with him. That is what i feel based on how i know him and how he acts.
However i dont want to ruin the whole w/e just because of one eve,by falling out on the phone/texts especially when we dont live togther, and yes when the time comes to move in then she'll have to accept im there, and deal with it or not see him as he is a home body and doesnt want to be out visiting seveeral times a week. So if we make it that far, then living together will be easy than the situation is just now.
As nosteppingstone said, she is trying to be the Alpha female, but no matter how hard she tries, at the end of the day its me he comes home to, and me who can legitimately hold his hand in public.
English Rose - your OH may
English Rose - your OH may come home to you and hold your hand at the end of the day, however I can tell you that is going to mean very little when you OH continues to excuse awful behaviour by your sd.
I see dating as test driving before you buy (i.e. commit). While you are dating and seriously considering committing by moving in with one another, your OH should be on his best behaviour as its the honeymoon period. If your OH is doing these types of things NOW, then what is he going to be like when he has got you exactly where he wants you? i.e. living/married together? By that point you have lost most of your bargaining power because its very difficult to just leave! Its going to get worse.
Listen to these ladies, they speak from experience. My own DH has thrown me under the bus so many times when it came to placating his ex and his child VS upsetting me. There was ALWAYS a good reason. Look at what your GROWN sd did, she cut you out of her wedding pics like some psycho demented mental patient and your OH thought that was ok?!! :jawdrop: Hes just as unhinged imo if he thinks thats fine.
Also you arent "letting" him go and babysit, he already agreed to do this! So HE and his mini wife sd decided. Not you.
So I shall give you some advice on how to manage this situation and attempt to get your OH to see some sense. Even though your sd is acting really inappropriately your OH is enabling her to continue, he is actively encouraging her to compete with you because if he wasnt he would have told her in no uncertain terms that cutting you out of the pics was OTT, immature and unnecessary. Sd probably wouldnt change, in fact her dislike of you would likely escalate because her daddy is putting her in her place for your sake however at least he would be acting like your partner...a loving, respectful, HEALTHY partner. He is allowing her to act like this due to fear and also because in some ways this attention he is getting from sd is feeding his ego, he likes being *needed* and being hero dad to sd. Your OH is not seeing sense at all, he is seeing his grown daughter acting like a madwoman, his innicent partner hurt and discluded but none of this has made your OH stop and rethink his actions and what they may be doing to you all, because lets be honest this is NOT healthy for any of you.
So what IS it going to take for your OH to change? Personally I think you have one shot, sometimes it works but sometimes it doesnt if that person doesnt want to change regardless what they lose. Personally I would exclude his daughter from you life completely. YOU also have a choice whether you want this woman in your life, and do you *really* considering how spiteful and toxic she is? By enduring it with a smile you are also enabling your OH to continue with how he treats you, same for sd. I would be telling OH: "I just wanted to tell you for the first and last time, that after everything your DD has done to hurt me, exclude me(insert examples) that I cannot be seen to continue to condone this. Its your dd's right to choose if she doesnt want to me in her life and to be hurtful towards me, however it is also MY right to protect myself and not have anything to do with her as a result. Which is what I have decided to do. Your dd is an adult and I have done nothing to her, except love you. For that she hates me. Sadly it seems you think this is acceptable. Again, your right to choose to allow her to treat me in this manner, which I disagree with. You can do what you like with DD, when you want from now on because I am not sitting around waiting for you to fit me in your busy schedule...which you seem to expect given your recent behaviour re: the babysitting. I am also rethinking moving in together as I feel your commitment to me is on your terms only and I do not feel you would be able to give me what I need, what I deserve such as protection,love and a family. From now on I would prefer it if you refrain from discussing or mentioning your DD in my prescence, she evidentally doesnt want me in her life and that is something you agree and are encouraging by allowing her to treat me like this and continuing to do things for her, and so I am merely doing what she is to me. Cutting her out of my life.
Then stick to what you have said. Dont talk about her or listen to ANYTHING OH has to say about her even if they are problems. Do not attend any events that she is attending, why bother when she causes you problems? Not your issue, because after all isnt that what your OH is doing to you? Letting you deal with his vindictive dd alone? Make plans when you are supposed to see your OH, ensure you go out on the night he is babysitting looking hot and text him a picture of you having fun with your friends. DO NOT sit home alone moping. Show your OH what he is missing out on. Dont move in with him or marry him, stick to your guns with that and become more unavailable to your OH, make him WORK for you. When you are with friends and the subject arises make sure they all know how sd has been treating you, say it half jokingly: "oh god, did you hear what sd did to me the other day? She cut me out of her wedding photos. OH thinks it was an accident. Yeah she "accidentally" cut me out of ALL those pictures...oh and she banned me from babysitting with OH, I really missed out there." I am sure your friends will ask OH what he thinks about this and make sure if he lies about his reaction you put everyone straight. By covering up for his behaviour you would be enabling it, so embarass him. Shame him. Guess what? He should be ashamed of how he is acting and like hell would I pretend everything was ok when he and his daughter tramples all over you.
After all you treat others as you wish to be treated. So am guessing then, that this is an invite for you to now treat your OH and his DD exactly in the manner they have bestowed upon YOU!
Delilah you obviously chose
Ok dont really know whats
Ok dont really know whats happening, but on seeing him a couple of hours ago, because i wasnt all happy clappy, he had a go at me, saying hes fed up of being caught in the middle etc, and that as i so obviously have a problem, that we'd better not spend the w/e together, and i was to leave!!. Feeling completely winded, unsure and tearful, im back at my home... Dont know how to act?...bit shell shocked
I hate to say this and I know
I hate to say this and I know I am not the only one EnglishRose17, this is never going to get any better. As olderbutrarelywiser said, it will actually get worse when you move in. I would definitely hold off moving in with him until he sets some boundaries with her. I can only say that if I knew then what I know now there is absolutely no way I would have married my DH. Hindsight is always 20/20 but then it's too late.
Hmm i just typed a reply &
Hmm i just typed a reply & its disappeared..Anyway yeah living together is the furthest thing from my mind just now..im not even sure if hes distancing himself from me in order to end the r/ship?...i seem to make all teh compromise, his daughter will always be a apart of his life,a nd it seems he is willing to "dismiss" me rather than ackowledged that i have a reason to feel slighted by her. He is such a great man apart from in this are, i wouldnt have stayed with him for 3 years if it wasnt good..however now i just dont know what hes thinking or expecting, as for S/D she will be made up having daddy to herself all w/e..
In the past he hasnt ever
In the past he hasnt ever talked to her about our fallouts etc, he is a very private man, and so though he will undoubtedly spend time with her, he is likely to say " Englishrose couldnt come down after all"...i like to think he values me and a future, maybe im being "punished" for making him have to defend her or make him see (even if he doesnt admit it) that SD is a little twisted and if it was done by anyone else he would see it as wrong, but as its SD he cant possibly say anything BUT he will have felt it. Ive never bad mouthed her(maybe i should start) so he cant justify to her or himself that i have done wrong, so he has to make me think im wrong, so i recoil, then apologise meaning he doesnt have to accept any blame. Im just concerned that he hes prepared to throw over 3 years away just because hes had to face up to SD being a troll, when previously hes said oh no she doesnt have an issue with you..ha bloody ha..
Honestly, I have been in your
Honestly, I have been in your shoes. For a few good years DH did support me but that ended once the sgkids came along. It will never be a good situation from all that you have written. You will always be #2 - not a nice place to be as a wife. RUN FAR AND RUN FAST!!! Trust me I wish I had done that years ago.
I am just finding it hard to
I am just finding it hard to see what SD actually wants, i mena she is married with a kid,its not as if she lives at home so couldnt see her dad every minute even if he was single. Also my SO wants to be in a r/ship otherwise he wouldnt have "found me",but instead just hung on SD every word, so what in their minds should my role be?. Not living together is worse as i am limited to when i see him, if we were under the same roof (not 40 miles apart)then he could go off see SD whenever yet we would still have plenty of time togther. As this cant happen just yet, thats why i think SD is upping the nasty tactics...
Or perhaps lightening bolt moment, SO made the decision for me not to go around there as he says seeing us sperately in theory makes it easier for him, i guess so he can play whatever game SD gives him, without thinking of how im affected..So if he thought it was his great idea and ive crticised it then ha no wonder hes gotten so angry...Hmm maybe??? Still dont know what the solution is.....
Also most of you have been in this situation for some time, so you must be able to manage it somehow and still have a loving r/ship with your partners...how did you manage that, or do you just let DH do what he has to with SKs??
im made up that you are still
im made up that you are still interested in helping me understand or deal with my situation, from both sides of teh fence as it were. To blubelle, thank you, you sound like a true hoenst person,and if my partners daughter was as straightforward as you there would be no issues. I think she does have issues with her dad being with me, and as well as expecting him to put her first, she also wants him to reassure her that she is no1, and im irrelevant in her eyes. She happy for him to be with me until she wanast him or it affects her, and this has happened more since the birth of her son 18mths ago, we did start off getting on okish!!.
Anyway at the moment i have real doubts if our r/ship is still on as ive had no contact from him since i was "dismissed" last night, and he went to SD house. I expect he will spend time with her today, he will feel "ah no conflict as English Rose isnt here" and i worry that he will then see that as a life choice...Anway im going off tangent. Basically until i hear from SO, then im in limbo and cant "dis-engage" or whatever from S/D anyway..Trying not to let thinsg spiral in my head though its hard when this not cause by me yet im suffering the most!!...
"I'd rather they stay married
"I'd rather they stay married because it is no loss to me. I am pretty sure by this point I am cut out of the will and there's not one thing in that house that I really want, even though I grew up in that house and it is still chock full of my family's stuff."
I was waiting for this. There had to be something else. All of the indifference is a defense mechanism to subdue the anxiety you are feeling over the loss of the 'family stuff' and memories of a better time. Please talk to your Dad about getting these things before he passes on.
"Ice can run both ways." So
"Ice can run both ways." So true! The attitude that you are totally unimportant, dispensible and replacable can be reciprocal.
I agree with bluebell. As
I agree with bluebell. As someone else has said, you know immediately if the SKs like you or not and if not, there is no motive for them to make things work. I have from time to time really loved my YSD (we adored each other when we met, she being a child then) and it could have been a proper aunt-niece type relationship but for the machinations of BM at the beginning, but even so losing that option is no big deal to either of us and I think we are both very content with what we have now she is an adult. We just truck on, like each other, enjoy each other's company from time to time, and that's fine. My relationship with SS too, though it had a rockier start, is also a growing one. I think by the end, in decades' time, the two relationships could even be more than good, but the key is hope for nothing. For me the difficult one is OSD who behaves as described by so many on this forum. Her first reaction to me was jealousy and hate. This merely blossomed as time passed and her confidence grew. I think I have to be honest and admit that due to her past behaviour (which actually was not that bad, objectively, but it was dealt with by DH very badly) I would not have remained in the marriage but for the fact that DH and I have two children together. There just comes a point when you think, is this man worth suffering this much for? And for me, that question does answer itself in the negative if the man is colluding with, or causing, the problem, which I do think the husbands (and wives where relevant) described on this site, do. The skids would not have the power to hurt if the parents did not let them (or secretly encourage them for subsconscious reasons). My solution was to disengage, again in the way described, which I did about 4 or 5 years ago when OSD was just going to university. I kept engaged with the other two and this was quite fulfilling. I never saw OSD since and family life once more became bearable. In fact I only joined this forum in the last couple of weeks, because DH is trying to reintegrate OSD -- again in the timehonoured way described by the regulars here -- and the pain was just so great I had to seek some comfort from strangers. Thanks guys, I have really found it, and as OSD hoves nearer over the horizon, I'll be posting here a little more detail. But for the moment EnglishRose, my suggestion is that from the descriptions you have given of your DH and SD's behaviour, it does indeed sound something a lot of us would not tolerate without the other ties that bind us being what they are, and I think people are telling you this not to attack your plans but just to warn you that being made to suffer by people like your SD and DH is not something you need to analyse, question, whatever whatever, you just need to recognise that it it highly unlikely to reduce and more likely it will get worse, so you need to make decisions with your eyes open for the future. My suggestion would be, have an escape route in the background, don't share property, don't make career sacrifices, don't have children, all for a period that you designate in your mind as a substantial trial period, watch closely how his extended female family work with the situation (a common one seems to be the MIL teaming up with the SD), and keep a clear eye on your own need to be loved in a simple, easy way. It is possible, it can happen in these relationships, but if you have to pay for it with too much pain is it worth it?
well salt in the wound...SD
well salt in the wound...SD facebook reads "having a lovely day in the sun with my baby boy and his grandad" so my partner has spent the day with his daughter, she will know we've fallen out, or at least that im not around, (this is the first time in the whole of our r/ship we havent spent the w/e together in some way) & be giving him the best day out ever just to make him realise how great life without me can be!!. I feel so upset & yet dont want to believe a 3year r/ship is over just like that!!!
the babysitting was last
the babysitting was last night, today is another separate time.She only lives 2 miles from him
You bet SD is happy. She
You bet SD is happy. She thinks she won. I would let her think that and move on. He or no man is worth the hurt and agony that is sure to follow. I wish I were in your shoes right now with all the knowledge these ladies have shared. I wouldn't be sitting here reading and posting - I would be off enjoying life with a DH who really cares about me. Take care and stay strong.
That FB entry was left for
That FB entry was left for you. She knows you read her FB. Stop reading her FB, you are hurting yourself. They are stuck in the past, find a guy with whom you can share the future.
That FB entry was left for
That FB entry was left for you. She knows you read her FB. Stop reading her FB, you are hurting yourself. They are stuck in the past, find a guy with whom you can share the future.
That FB entry was left for
That FB entry was left for you. She knows you read her FB. Stop reading her FB, you are hurting yourself. They are stuck in the past, find a guy with whom you can share the future.
thanks for the support...im
thanks for the support...im feeling abit more in control and will actively dis-egage from SD as soon as he gives me the opportunity by mentioning her...
thanks again to everyone. I
thanks again to everyone. I have spent the last 24 hours in contemplation and have decided temporarily at least to leave them both to it. If my partner can so easily dismiss me because i have an issue with his daughter then so be it, however im sure the fact of having no excuse not to spend every eve and all w/e etc with her means he will miss me sooner than he thinks. I have a healthy r/ship with my adults kids, and dont have to pander to them. If thats what floats his boat then he will be a lonely old man. As for SD, who cares?....
EnglishRose - have you
EnglishRose - have you thought perhaps your OH is powerplaying you? In other words, he who cares less (or appears to) has the most power.
Its possible he is justing expecting you to trot back into your spot when he decides he wants to see you. He knows much of what his dd is doing is wrong imo and because dd is behaving badly and he is running out of excuses to justify his continued acceptance of that behaviour, he creates arguments. You yourself said you hadnt said anything (or much) about what sd has done. As OH doesnt like feeling the guilt or having to come up with reasons why its ok for him to go running to sd, for her to treat you as she is he instead finds a scapegoat. The messenger effectively. YOU. Remember, attack is the best form of defence. Creating an argument and saying "well I thought it best if we had some space from one another, rather than arguing all weekend and things escalating" after the quarrel is a GREAT excuse to just bugger off and do what you want. So again he demonstrates how much of a crappy person he is.
You say he is lovely, but honestly what kind, loving person allows their partner to be treated like that? I doubt you expect him to go to war with his daughter over this, but I sure dont think its asking much for him to say "whats up with you doing x? Why are you behaving like that?..." and "I dont agree with that." and then implement some basic consequences "sorry I have plans for then..."
I wouldnt be surprised if he comes crawling back expecting you to be ok with what he has just done. My advice is in line with what I initially advised you to do. Make some fun plans for this weekend, go out looking classy and beautiful. Post some pictures of you on fb (preferably with some hot men behind you in a bar or something
). Make him RUE the day he dared treat you like a convenience.
Lol at the idea of me with
I actually got an email yday, chatty, no mention of the fallout, i responded by saying "hi, glad youre well & didnt suffer too much with all that sun" x (it was really warm here0. He obviously though i was going to be all excited to hear form him etc or ask about SD but i didnt, and plan to disengage from her, perhaps even him in the short-term.
So glad i have you guys to vent with and advise me...looking out for me now, and the battle lines are marked..lets see what happens when i dont give a ****...
OMG he apologised!!!! Short
OMG he apologised!!!!
Short version, he said he was wrong to agree to babysit without me, and should have talked to me first (i wasnt that bothered about going it was more SD demanding that i dont). He thought it would make less stress if i didnt go (for him) but he accepts he maybe got it wrong..oooo you dont say lol..
Anyway, seems he may not be quite as blaise about her behaviour, and while it may lead to more confrontation, at least he recognises some errors...I fuly expect SD to kick off once she knows her dad wont agree to it again. My issues are with er and im sure there will be amnay more to contend with, so i will keep you up to speed..Oh and he told her the reason i wasnt around last w/e was my son wwas ill, rather than let her know we had fallen out, so thats a good thing huh..
Don't like the bit where he
Don't like the bit where he confides in you that he's told the other woman a lie about your son to save your face. Your face doesn't need saving. He shouldn't be discussing you with her given her attitude. If he lies this easily to her (calling your son's name in vain, how dare he, he is no relative) then he lies as easily to you. Why should you believe an emotional swindler? This guy likes playing women off against each other and he's looking for your insecurities.
Thanks for the indignation on
Thanks for the indignation on my behalf, but i guess i'd rather he explained why i wasnt there that way than said we had fallen out as the SD would definately see that as room to manoever, bad mouth me or even just "remind" SO about it at future times. I am sure we are all guilty of white lies to prevent further blood shed at times so to speak, and although i wish it hadnt been necessary, SO is only a man, and it was done to prevent our personal issues becoming public knowledge, so i gotta cut him a little slack. The main outcome of it all is that he has agreed to discuss SD demands with me first before just going ahead with whatever they may be..