Boundaries and Targets
This is also in my Blogs, but has been edited a bit.
This discussion topic focuses on Boundaries, how they are enforced and our reactions when they are violated.
Ok so I know this is so extremely minor compared to EVERYTHING ELSE, but when DH brought Toxic Troll her VERY LAST Alimony payment ever (que the drums and blast the trumpets) after she had signed the receipt that this alimony was paid in full, she reached up and touched DH's hair, and said "oh i like your hair",
DH is blessed with gorgeous jet black hair and no wrinkles. And hes in his 50's.
I want to draw blood. Seriously I am wanting to kill this b!tch, but Munchkin SD13 exists and Toxic Troll would have me arrested for assault laughing the entire time.
Luckily, for all involved (I seriously do not want to go to jail because that filthy piece of ch!t) Dh told her to back off, then later discussed it with munchin, how she violated boundaries, how it was very inappropriate.
AND I JUST heard about this, Frick. So he was afraid that I would react and he would have to experience the fallout from it.
I kept my cool, and really lavished on the compliments "great job in your response to her! You enforced your boundaries - and in front of Munchkin SD13." said this about 3-4 times. I only spewed vitrol on this board. None of it came to the surface with him. We enjoyed the rain and our little firepit on our covered porch out back, watching our fuit trees bud out, toasting to the goodness of our life together.
Upon reflection, I believe that Toxic Troll's intended target was me. I think that all along, she has been wanting to p!ss me off when she can, cause problems and issues when she can. Because when DH tells her "no" to her inane requests (can I borrow your truck to haul furniture, can you bring me your old pool table...) he tells her "no, because it will make Clove upset" or "no, it is detrimental to my marriage, helping the ex out". So he looks like a nice guy.
She figured he would tell me she was stroking his hair, I would get jealous, go ballsitic, an evening of arguments and toxic reactions.
Im just wondering what to do next. Its obvious, now especially, that she is enjoying the control she has over him (I can ALWAYS up the child support!) and effect on me (your husband once belonged to ME, I have TWO CHILDREN with him, you have exactly NONE, You will NEVER have the great love we shared once... I love it when I hear that YOU, Clove are upset because Im yanking on his chain...kibbles!)
Do I have a heart to heart with Munchkin SD13 about the boundary issues? I feel bad for her that she has Toxic Troll and all her failed relationships as her model for future relationships. How do you all deal with these issues of the bio-toxic-mother violating boundaries? How to get the point over to DH that he needs to have these boudnaries (not doing personal favors, not being accessible personally) without involving me and our marriage? (reminder a few weeks ago, Toxic Sunday happened..)
I know its been a continual thing, just like a pimple on my butt, now its come to the surface in all its painful glory...
I personally don't think it's
I personally don't think it's Munchkin you need to have the heart-to-heart with - it's DH. I know you love him tremendously, but you need to have higher expectations for him when it comes to his interactions with TT. You give him a lot of passes because of her abuse of him and his supposed inability to manage her in any different way due to PTSD.
I think he's capable of setting boundaries without throwing you under the bus every time, but he doesn't want to, not really. He's okay with continuing to do her favors and fix her car and barter for CS - but he knows YOU aren't, so he tells her that. At the same time, you seem to blame TT way more than him, when he's the one you married. HE'S the one that should be setting better boundaries because if he doesn't, he's going to ruin his marriage.
Yes he is
Thats one of my issues, is that he doesnt really mind, its ME that minds. He said as much. He doesnt mind doing for her, and that is the really really hard part for me. Thats my pimple.
I don't really understand why
I don't really understand why he'd want to do favors for someone that he alleges abused him. My DH was abused, too - but he wouldn't pee on BM if she were on fire. Is it a sort of trauma bond thing? If so, then he's still enmeshed in that relationship and needs some therapy to sort that out.
EASIER
He sais that its just "easier" on him to pony up with whatever shes asking, than to deal with her anger, her rages, her name-calling, accusations. Its easier until I say something and get mad. I dont think its enmeshment, its trying to keep things drama-free, for now. Which I understand and support. No drama is good, unless its on a stage, and theres popcorn.
You think hes enmeshed still? Ill have to consider that as a possibility and research how he can get out of that enmeshment.
He is wanting me to help him get set up with auto-payment for child support. To avoid her yanking the payment chain.
Yes, I think he's still
Yes, I think he's still behaving the same way he did when he was married to her. Keeping the peace is not the goal with women like this, it's setting firm boundaries and not letting their drama infect your home. At first, that is really hard, but over time, it works. They learn to not bother because they can't get through the boundaries. A goal of "no drama" just means "do whatever TT wants at any price".
I agree with Tog on this one.
I agree with Tog on this one. They might be divorced on paper but they have not figured out how to relate to each other outside of that dysfunctional marriage.
The hardest work in a divorce is the emotional work that follows all the paperwork. She has not let go of his role as her husband in so many capacities and he is falling right in line, behaving as he did in his marriage to her. She's a tyrant and he's trying to avoid the rage.
He can do the work without her permission or her participation but he doesn't seem terribly inclined to do that. He would rather not do the work on himself and change the dynamic because it's easier not to. Introspection and change can be a scary and difficult thing.
That's not to say that you can make it easier for him to roll up his sleeves and get to it but you don't have to accept his reluctance, or apparent outright refusal, to move on from their prior dynamic with the appropriate boundaries.
They are not a team. They are not a couple. He seems to forget that quite frequently as he digs his heels in and blames you for any semblance of change, as hollow and superficial as it may be.
I'm sure he will tell you he doesn't love her, or really have any feelings for her, at this point. I'd believe him on the love part. But there are definitely some unresolved or unconfronted feelings that keep him in this loop.
It is detrimental to both you and your marriage. That is why it bothers you. Not because you're jealous or insecure or whatever other line of bullshish someone attributes because "SM." It bothers you because it is a betrayal of your relationship, your marriage, the standards and expectations you have of a life partner. It is all of those things because he.is.not.available.to.you. And he won't be until he closes the door on that old dynamic.
She does act
Like he is still her husband.
She is still dependant on him, at least in the aspect of being the father of her children.
SO its more than her trying to upset me, its more like she is hanging on to the dynamic they had previously.
We were married 1.5 years ago, and she kept texting him all day. Luckily we eloped to an area with no cell service. We have been together 5.5 years and change. The divorce was finalise 2016 August. You would think with all that time, all her different relationships...
So, that objectively makes sense, her continually asking him for personal favor, that persepctive.
For HIM, I am definitely going to approach him about this, because your spot on with your evaluation - he "going along because it is easy" could possibly also be him having unresolved feeling/issues.
He and I met when he had JUST separated. The 1.5 years after we met, they were "in transition", meaning still spending time together.
And there are times that I definitely feel he is unavailable, although less and less now, and thought I was being overly emotional. So Im open to that possibility.
Yes, you've got it. She is
Yes, you've got it. She is maintaining control over him. Him saying that YOU don't want him to do things threatens her control over him. But he also is willing to continue to give her that control.
And I also don't think you are insecure - you just feel like your husband is still involved with her on a level that's not healthy, and you are right. I doubt he's in love with her - but he's still afraid of her, and that's an intense emotion that keeps people stuck.
I think he has to want to change that dynamic, but you have to let him know you can't live with it being like it is.
Ring-click. End of problem.
Ring-click. End of problem.
Incoming text - delete. End of problem.
Email from her - delete. End of problem.
Ranting in his face at a kid hand over. Record on his phone have his attorney send her a cease and desist and file for an RO/PO and COd no contact order to keep her at a distance.
End of problem.
Yes - he is at that point now
However with this virus hitting our area, shes less in his face. She is holding kiddo who has the flu currently and being very quiet.
She hardly ever calls. Just the texting things to him. Then acting like she is the reasonable one.
I thought you had to let people know that they are being recorded first? So theres that. Dh just get himself all in a twist when shes going off on him, I dont think he remembers himself. She has that kind of hold over him emotionally.
I think that the enmeshment angle is going to help with him shoring up the boundaries.
"I thought you had to let
"I thought you had to let people know that they are being recorded first?"
We went throught this with Satan. If a camera is pointed right at them, out in the open, they can't prove they didn't know. Furthermore, she will most likely react badly to the camera, while he's recording, further proof that she knows.
A camera was a magic bullet for getting Satan to stop accosting DH at exchanges. She tried to force us to stop recording and we refused.
I told the GAL: I am not a party to their case, so I can do whatever I want in a public parking lot or street. And I don't care who doesn't like it.
He said: She doesn't like it. It makes her not want to go outside.
I said: Exactly [dumbazz]
Satan had a long history of making false claims of abuse, and I made sure the GAL knew that, and I went on record that I knew she'd do it again.
Months later, she submitted an affidavit saying that DH had abused her during their marriage. They had already been divorced for 5 years and it had never come up before. When that came out, I leaned forward and eyefucked the GAL.
It also depends on the state.
It also depends on the state. In Texas any individual can record conversations that they are a party to without the concent of anyone else involved in the conversation.
Also, as I understand it anyone can record anything and anyone they wish in public without the concent of people being recorded. Concent is required if the footage is to be broadcast.
And THIS is the problem with
And THIS is the problem with husbands. He sais that its just "easier" on him to pony up with whatever shes asking, than to deal with her anger, her rages, her name-calling, accusations. Its easier until I say something and get mad. I dont think its enmeshment, its trying to keep things drama-free, for now.
We can apply this to skids as well. Honestly, I don't know what to do. I hear you though. And I am so glad that he told you. She is a dumb beeotch and if you react at all, she knows she has bothered you. Don't. And help him set up the auto-payment.
Hugs.
It is only easier if you are
It is only easier if you are a ball-less wonder.
Yes, set up the auto-payment. Or better yet, go with direct payroll withholding. Beyond that have zero contact with BM. She is compensated for caring for and raising the SKid(s) and DH should hold her accountable for just that. And DH should be held accountable for protecting his wife and marriage from the kids that are toxically influenced by their BM.
I recommend that any time the toxic opposition violates standards of reasonleness, that reaction is exactly what needs to happen. MAD worked in the cold war and it works when the toxic ipposition pulls their crap. Make the consequences for pulling crap so painful, publically humiliating, and durable that they will do anything to avoid a repeat.
Lather, rinse, repeat until they permanently crawl under the slime covered rock they should reside under at the bottom of their shallow and polluted genepool.
MAD?
I had to google it !
Which one do you mean?
MAD=Mutually Assured Destruction
MAD=Mean Absolute Deviation
Just recently Toxic Troll went and bought a PUPPY for Munchkin. Now she is locked up, but soon that puppy is going to cause a pile o'trouble. Munchkin told me the potty training isnt going so well, puppy has pooped ALL over their 1-bedroom apartment.
ANd DH is very adamant about us not taking care of puppy at our house. Like when Troll was evicted. And since Troll isnt working=no income that we know of and no one is hiring because of shelter in place order.
I told DH that since last time there was inappropriate touching, I will bring him envelopes to put the "child" support check inside and he can drop it in her mail box, without aNY direct contact.
AND will get that auto-withholidng instituted from his paycheck.
Things are squirrelly right now where I am.
Mutually Assured Destruction.
Mutually Assured Destruction. By that I meant that if BM gets out of line she will suffer orders of magnitude more than she can dish out.
I suggest that she be kept under control at a level of passive unhappiness escalating to a state of active misery if she does not behave reasonably. I completely agree with DH regarding the dog. The living conditions at TT's apartment are not his our your concern. TT bought the dog so she and the Munch can deal with it.
Direct withholding made things much easier for us in dealing with the SpermClan. No more dribbles of CS coming in intermittently even with all of it coming from the CSE office when the SpermGrandHag would drop it off a few dollars at a time.
Good luck.
Because your husband is
Because your husband is emotionally challenged. He knows you'll put up with the shiz, so he continues to cater to the ex. Keep in mind that it strokes his ego when two women want him. Put your foot down and if he still wants to fix ex's car, etc., get the hell outta there because he likes being around her too much!
We have - or rather had - not
We have - or rather had - not so much these days - the issue of NPD BM violating boundaries all the time. It used to piss me off in a similar way to how you are now feeling. For instance - just one example - NPD BM turning up at the train station when DH was taking the SDs on a birthday day out to London and inserting herself into the occasion. DH didn't tell me, as he knew it would make me angry - I found out a week or two later when SD25 dropped it into the dinner table convo that NPD BM had gone on that outing, while I was at home, alone, oblivious of what was going on.
My anger was principally that DH hadn't told her to eff right off, not that I felt she had any chance of getting back into his good graces. I think probably it would help you to sort out exactly why you are feeling threatened, especially since it sounds like your DH held the boundary very well on that occasion. I think you need to excavate to find your vulnerable spot and exactly what you are afraid of in this whole situation.
Righteous Anger
Im feeling that he should really MIND and NOT be ok with doing for her. Hes no longer hers to boss around (thats my job)
Just because they have 2 children together, doesnt mean that she has any relevance in our livs, but she crashed the vigil for MIL just recently, called him p-whipped, calls him names on a continual basis, but yet, because of the child and 50-50 he has to continually be wrapped up in her life, to an extent.
She is drunk on her power over him, because child support.
She is drunk on her power over me (she thinks) because 15 plus years, 2 children, and he has made it known it bothers me to do for her in any way.
Its a ort of righteous anger I am feeling too. Just a blazing type of anger at the whole situation we are in.
Wow, your BM went on a TRIP and DH didnt tell you about this? Now Im feeling righteous anger for YOU.
Ah, bless you - I made DH
Ah, bless you - I made DH suffer a bit for that one, lol! I don't think it was right for your DH to let TT know that it bothers you if he does for her. He needs a bit of a slap for that, IMHO.
I have and he KEEPS doing it
Must not be a hard enough smack.
Very clearly your DH is
Very clearly your DH is throwing you under the bus with his EX and making YOU the target of her anger because you are the reason her EX is so hard to manipulate and push around now.
It's like a BP telling their kids that "oh.. you need to stop doing X because it upsets SM".. or "SM and I talked and I'm sorry.. we can't have that sleepover"
The kids start to resent the stepparent too because the bio parent has unwittingly made their partner the reason why their kid isn't getting what they want.. and we wonder WHY people blame SM's?
I mean.. I get it.. sometimes a stepparent comes in hard and heavy with all sorts of new rules and "chore charts" etc.. and even if all these things aren't horrible expectations? they are still NEW expectations and the kids haven't been given the groundwork when they were younger to behave better and pitch in.
In a way, it is like training a horse or animal.. if you skip over the basics.. and rush an older animal to perform like another animal that has had the underpinning training.. you often end up with a disaster. the kids become confused.. resentful and battles of the wills rarely work out for anyone.
But with his EX.. he has an expectation that he gives in.. she knows that you hate it.. so she still pushes.. and he would just rather give in because it's 'easier'. Now, it may be true that his relationship's happiness is at stake.. but BM doesn't need that window to the soul.
He needs to just start saying "no" as if it is a complete sentence. No...period.
If he feels he HAS to give her a reason.. he can say "I don't have time".. for an action and "I don't have the resources" if it is money. that's it.. she doesn't have to know what he is doing with his time.. or what reason his money is tight..but less is more with this stuff.
It seems he is still trying to "make her not be mad at me" and honestly.. I think I would point that out to him.. so he can see the error in his ways.
Errors
I hope that I can "help" him see things more objectively. And that he will agree. He is more in agreement with my suggestions lately, since I did the research, helped him get documentation he needs for his alimony obligation fulfillment. He is open to getting the child support auto-deducted, to reduce any more chain-yanking and moving towards a communication app that is admissable to court. I was actually surprised that he would "provoke her further", by taking away regular texting communications, and making it "less flexible" when she is to receive her CS.
I think he will still bring up the "easier" excuse as to why not use me/our marriage as an excuse to say "no", and the whole "upping of child support" as a reason to still work on her car...
But I will do more research, re-read and wait for a good time this week to bring it up again. It was good that I am calm and more objective. A few years ago this would have been a WWW3 occurance. This isnt the first time she has done something like this. She used to send DH inappropriate (sexually suggestive) texts, I saw just one, and he deleted the others. He had to actually have a conversation with her about the fact that it was disrespectful and innappropriate! I recall that her BF at the time was ok with it, that she told DH "shes glad she doesnt have a jeaous BF". LOL. A few years down the road and this very same BF is calling DH, crying because she hadnt returned home and was "out' frequently, coming back with rug burns on her knees.
AND, to make things worse, she told munchkin that her ex bf was ok with her having an "open relationship". Shes 13 and being told her mother is in open relationships! Just ewe. Well, I took it upon myself to tell her that the ex bf most definitely was NOT ok with it, which is why he would drink and get angry, and had called her father crying about it. UG. So MANY skeins to untangle with these people.
I couldn't be with DH if he
I couldn't be with DH if he was still entangled with BM. Its like make a choice and stick with it dude. Did your DH ever spend time alone before having relationships or did he jump from his FOO into a girlfriend right away? If he never had time alone without the influence of another, he might not know how to be himself. I found this with my DH, he jumped into relationships, never being alone as an adult. Therefore, he never really learned to know what he wanted, liked, didn't like etc.... We did have an 18 month period where we did each live alone and he did acquire that self knowledge he missed out on.
The only skein I see that you need to untangle is DH's and BM's. Once he cuts that one, I bet the rest fall into place. It did for my DH. Then he had to tell BM, "I divorced you, not the skids" and that pissed her off. but she needed to see it( in an email).
He LOVES being married
He has always wanted to be married, just not to HER, esp since she cheating and online and getting d!ck pics from randos. He is pretty rock solid in the not wanting to sow wild oats front.
He really loves our life together, but no he stayed in the house they shared, after he moved HER out and right after he and friend went out dancing and thats when we met.
We stayed in contact 1.5 years. He dated a little here and there, but no other girlfriends. That time was his "transition" whereby he and Toxic Troll still went out to events, he felt sorry that she was now "all alone", so would invite her to family functions, whereby she would tell everyone what an abuser he was. She would steal the house key from her eldest daughter and sneak in the house, drink and smoke, and not be able to drive home, so she was always THERE. Definitely not a clean cut.
We recently bought the very same house they shared, in October. of last year.
I am realizing both my husband and my house need a deep cleansing. Or saging, or excorcism...
I absolutely would not
I absolutely would not discuss with SD how her mom and dad have bad boundaries. There is zero need for you to have this heart to heart conversations with her. I'd not drag stepkid into it.
I'd however take it up with DH very seriously. This nonsense needs to stop and ASAP. He treats BM well becsyse he is afraid to upset her. He isn't afraid to upset you because you are very nice, way too nice, and he knows you aren't going anywhere. Maybe that has to change