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DH & clove 0, Toxic Troll BM 2

CLove's picture

Well, as everyone was so supportive and encouraging, I went and dove into the paperwork and filings and judgements with a false sense of security.

1 - Spousal Support. I found a notarized document that was part of filing, that lists the period of months with the End Date of March 2020. Halleluja! Not so fast Clove.

Apparently - and thanks to the commentor that pointed this out - there is a provision that the courts CAN indeed extend the spousal support period, IF there is no provision for termination. IF there are "special circumstances" Toxic Troll CAN extend it. HOWEVER, I cannot find the judgement that would tell me the language and if that provision was given. I have gone through my paperwork over and over again. I cannot find their final divorce agreement. I can see it in my minds eye stamped August 2016. We had celebrated recieving it. 

Full disclosure Steptalkers: DH, in his infinite wisdome, ignored my continual entreaties to have Toxic Troll sighn receipts in his booklette. He gave her $200 cash every month like clockwork for 47 months. And gave $100 in trade, for something that has recently become legal in California. She always smoked more than that month and would smoke the next month too. So essentially there is no proof he paid ANY Spousal support. It was cash and trade. 

My stomach is tied in knots as I type this. So -  Im taking a half day Friday because DH has half day Friday. He needs to be educated and prepared. We will get a copy of final Divorce Agreement stamped and sealed. 

2 - Child Support. While looking through all my paperwork and files, tearing everything apart, I went through the Child Support modification orders, that had been filed 1.5 years ago. When they divorced, they agreed no child support, and a low spousal support. I was not contributing to the household then. She agreed to low spousal and no CS as "trade" for work on her car. Thats where things are coming from. It was their "side agreement", and at the time with 2 children, she would have gotten 1064 CS plus maybe 500 SS. Which he could not afford. This is what her attorney told her so we dont know. 

When she filed for child support, the court granted it, and the documents state $347 for 1 child, stating that the amount was "below the guidelines" that the calculator would give, which when I plugged in sample numbers, came out to a little over $500. In reading our superior court website about modifying child support, it tellls me that IF the child support granted was "below the guidlines", then it could be modified and increased without needing a reason.

Folks. Thanks for your support. Im stressed sick over this. The difference is basically what he was paying in spousal support, but STILL. 

It makes me want to get a law degree with a certificate in Family Law. And advocate to fix this broken system that rakes the good ones over the coals and fattens the wallets of greedy scum.

hereiam's picture

Well, some of this is certainly your DH's doing. Cash, with no receipts, and trade for spousal support? What was he thinking?

I am sorry that you now have to stress over his stupidity and enmeshment with BM.

CLove's picture

The person that helped get the documentation together for the divorce was a paralegal.

She really tried to emphasise the need for signed receipts. He will suffer for this and I will have to hit him hard with this in the future.

And when I mentioned this might be an issue, he very earnestly told me that he has Munchkins testimony that he paid every month on time.

CLove's picture

Im the one that insists on keeping her as far away from things as possible.

If only he had done the right way, he wouldnt need anyones "testimony".

He is a nice, hardworking man who is afraid of what his ex can do to him.

No one signs up for this...

lieutenant_dad's picture

He literally signed up for this when he signed a marriage license with TT! And when he signed the divorce decree with TT! And when he didn't sign receipts!

You need to stop seeing your DH as a victim to BM. He traded weed for alimony?!?! CLove, this isn't a Facebook Marketplace transaction. This is a LEGAL OBLIGATION and he traded a gray-area legal product for a LEGALLY BINDING PAYMENT.

I know you think the sun shines out his backside, but he's only mildly better than TT. He'd rather do things "his way" than the right way. Now he might be stuck paying *another* 4 years of alimony and may be facing an increase in CS because he didn't do things right. Things he PAID A LEGAL PROFESSIONAL TO ADVISE HIM ON!

This is not a "poor DH" moment. He didn't just make one idiot move. He's made SEVERAL idiot moves that have cost him (and you) thousands of dollars AND has dragged Munchkin into the middle.

He SHOULD be afraid because his own idiocy may be his undoing. He better start sucking up to BM again or hire an actual attorney to unf*ck this disaster he created for himself. Wallowing in self-pity while you lick his wounds isn't helpful. How you aren't the most pissed off person on this forum currently, contemplating divorce or a lobotomy, is beyond me.

CLove's picture

Sometimes I need the clarity that comes with a solid a$$kicking.

Im pissed at the Troll. I feel sorry for DH. He isnt sophisticated at all. And she has her own lawyer and loves the control of fear.

I am MAD that he didnt listen to me in the first place, however, I need to see this through and cannot come from a place of anger, that will just shut him down. Hes an abused husband, used to being treated badly by her. 

Facebook marketplace transaction.LOL. He loves doing trades, and loves facebook marketplace too, so thats en pointe.

I will do my best to get him on track with this before its too late (she files something).

 

lieutenant_dad's picture

Do not use his abuse as a scapegoat. Absolutely do not.

My DH was abused by BM, too. He has done and said things in the past that were reactions to that abuse. But you best your arse that I gave my DH hell for it when it impacted me.

If he is still THAT mentally traumatized from the abuse, then he needs to be in therapy. He needed to not get married. He needs to not talk to TT or do anything for her. If you want to help him, then you need to guide him to find help to heal from that.

He does not get to use that as an excuse years later when he's all too happy to trade weed for alimony, or when he's all to happy to chew you out and be abusive/toxic to you when you don't fall in line, or when he's all too happy to put Munchkin in the middle.

You can support him while calling him on his BS. Do that.

tog redux's picture

Ugh. Why did he even pay in cash in this day and age, when online banking will keep all of your records for you?

Well, I'm guessing he's not done paying spousal support.

CLove's picture

That the final divorce decree has the proper language...Ill find out on Friday.

And then we sweat it for a month...

CLove's picture

And to him he doesnt think spousal support is as big a deal for tracking as child support.

ESMOD's picture

I used to make deposits directly into BM's account.. I kept my reciepts..I think it's crazy she gave me her banking information.. but I wrote on every check.  "for Child Support DH obligation".. 

I wasn't paying with "my money".. their other arrangement HAD been a lot of cash trading hands.. I put a stop to that..haha.

CLove's picture

I gave up harping on it. He would get impatient and just say it is his business to worry about.

Nothing has changed where that goes. Im about at the point that I am tired of worrying about things.

CLove's picture

Yes, but she gave it away to goodwill.

susanm's picture

To try and work with what you have in front of you, a change in circumstances does work both ways.  Didn't I read something about a Workers Comp settlement?  That is an issue on her side that has to be taken into consideration and may go to show that she does not have the need for an extension of spousal support.  There is also the posting on social media of her extravagant spending which I would preserve before someone with a brain tells her to wipe it.

I agree with the others that paying her in cash, even with receipts, is not smart.  I don't even want to touch paying her in recently legal substances.  While it may have become legal, I can't imagine bringing that into the argument will make either one of them look credible.  And if you get the wrong judge, he could consider what your DH was doing a sale without a license since he was getting a monetary value for the product.  I would talk to an atty about the wisdom of continuing that right away.

CLove's picture

This will be his last payment. Hopefully. So no more ongoing payments in THAT. 

Nope. I kept telling him that he needs to write receipt if he was going the cash route. But he disregarded that. So now processing the information we are going to educate ourselves a bit by going to courthouse, and having some help in reviewing documents.

hereiam's picture

He is a nice, hardworking man who is afraid of what his ex can do to him.

He wouldn't need to be afraid of her if he had done things properly.

I would be so fed up at this point, I would tell him to work on her car, hang her mirrors, decorate her apartment, and whatever else she wanted him to do, just leave me out of it.

tog redux's picture

Me too. And I sure as hell would not help him make up any financial shortfall caused by his stupidity in dealing with her.

Exjuliemccoy's picture

Please tell me your DH saves his texts from BM? Didn't she just text him demanding he give her CS early for her to spend on her Hawaii vaca? Having her written discussions/requests/demands for early CS might just save his a$$. Your DH might also consider creating texts convos where he can discuss CS with BM, getting further proof that she does indeed get regular CS.

If your DH doesn't pull his head out soon, I don't know what you can do, Clove. But I sure as h@ll would find ways to make him feel the pain. What an IDIOT!

strugglingSM's picture

When I met DH he was paying CS in cash. Then he paid in money orders. He didn't like paying with checks because sometimes BM would take forever to cash them. I hit the roof and told him he was an idiot. 

BM tried to claim that he didn't pay her for the first two years after the divorce, but I found an email where she told him he was paying her $6 less than she was entitled to and she multiplied the $6 by all the months he'd paid. Since the email had a date on it, I gave it to DH's lawyer as proof that he had been paying. She was also wrong about th $6 he was actually overpaying her by nearly $20 a month. 

I too, am the only one who organized DH's papers. I think between DH, BM, and me only one of us has read their full agreement...and that's me!

strugglingSM's picture

Also, in my case, DH was entitled to spousal support, but he didn't seek it because BM threatened him and he thought he shouldn't. Meaning he had to move in with MIL after the divorce because he couldn't afford a place big enough for SKids to stay. 

It annoys me that BM got away with paying nothing, but in all honestly, if DH had asked for money from BM, a cut of her business, or more custody time, he likely would have ended up the subject of a Dateline story, because there's nothing BM loves more than money and having to pay DH would have sent her over the deep end. 

Steptotheright's picture

Sounds like a tough spot. Untracked cash and weed? Are you kidding me? I don't think a court will recognize the spousal support given so if she chooses to, she could possibly extend it through letigious action, or sue for back spousal support.  CS can also be raised as it appears DH was lowballing it w the temporary permission of toxic troll.

She's right in that she can raise the stakes on CS, as per the language of the documents you've read.

So..... Realize what this means. He will be enmeshed w toxic troll for many years to come, she's holding a hammer over his head.

tog redux's picture

And don't forget the car repairs!

If I were DH, I'd happily pay more CS and alimony just so I could stop being BM's bitch. At her beck and call for every little thing she wants, out of fear that he'll have to pay more. I'd rather work two jobs than allow that.

ESMOD's picture

Well.. now we know where TT was coming from when she got up in arms over his refusal to fix her car.  It sounds like car repairs etc.. WERE part of their original deal.. so while I wouldn't like my husband working on his Ex's car.. or house.. or yard.. it wouln't be my place to demand he did not do that when he, himself, made this part of his arrangment with his EX.

And.. I can see where the EX would be livid that her ExDH's wife was changing the arrangement without any consideration for the loss of "services" that were supposed to be in lieu of pmt.  

At this point... I would tell him to get his butt over there and fix her damn car.. or pay to have it fixed.. his choice.  I would then pray that was enough to calm her down.

CLove's picture

Ive recomended that he just continue doing what he is doing, and keep things "nice". 4 Years and 3 months to go, for him to be her car-b!tch.

CLove's picture

My only idea at this point is for him to fill out a receipt for her to sign, pay the alimony in full this month and have it listed as payment #47. With the date. To match the divorce docs.

Otherwise he is on his own with that.

HowLongIsForever's picture

Wow that went in the wrong direction rather quickly.

I'm on the fence about the alimony portion of things.  That there's a notarized statement makes me think that was simply incorporated (or amended) into the agreement.  It leads me to believe there are no additional statements in the decree.  Which means its probably modifiable.  Especially if it was granted in a separate filing after the divorce was final.  Even if that's the case there is some good news.

1.  She has previously, repeatedly acknowledged receipt of payment, even if inadvertently.  That is in his favor if you guys have managed to save any of it.

2.  If she's not yet resolved her disability claim (or whatever it is she's got going) she can't so easily claim proof of disability as the need behind the modification, in theory.

3.  Her extremely poor financial decisions that seem to be on repeat like her favorite track could go either way, but that means it could also go in his favor.

4.  Its not retroactive, just to the filing date if it is modified in her favor.

For the deviation I think he is probably SOL.  If its true that a deviation was made and agreed upon, and that course correcting only requires one to file the request, it doesn't seem like he's got a leg to stand on there.

Personally I think his best bet is to tell her to pound sand on the car repairs forevermore (once the rest of the mess is settled).  That leash needs to be cut or she will forever yank it. 

He should pay child support as calculated without deviation and he should pay it through SDU so there is not only record but he doesn't have to deal with BM on it.  

Upping CS for 5 more years (60 months) is going to be cheaper than the legal costs to fight it, his actual labor costs at fair market value for the multitude of repairs and most importantly, his (and your) sanity and freedom.

For the alimony 1.  Typically you're looking at half the length of the marriage.  2.  Where child support is involved alimony calculation is considered after CS is addressed.  3.  Rough estimate would be 40% of his net monthly income - 50% BMs.  

Her income would be the unknown here but you can get an idea as to whether or not she's just blowing smoke based on a worst case scenario with the numbers.

Get a hold of that decree and verify what he's looking at for alimony.  If she's the one with leverage he can try to negotiate permanently closing the door on alimony for corrected child support.  She may go for it as alimony will still be modifiable should his situation change, potentially have an end date earlier than CS for another 5 years and she won't have legal costs beyond the filing fee (or have her dirty financial laundry aired in court).  Just make sure that this time it is a closed issue.

Different state but the wording in SOs decree is: "No Uniform Spousal Support Order is being entered in this case, as no spousal support is being ordered.  No spousal support is awarded to either party and spousal support for both parties is forever barred as to both parties."

If it turns out the decree is all sorts of vague, skip the paralegal route and spend the couple hundred dollars to have a (decent) licensed attorney review/suggest changes before submitting to the court.

It sounds all sorts of bad based on your update but there is still opportunity for you guys to keep it from going completely sideways.

 

CLove's picture

Agreed.

As to the "shortfall" in alimony he has paid the 3 years and 11 months, my idea is for him to get a receipt book, and write $300 PAID Payment #47, March 22, 2020. This will be a reflection of the Divorce Agreement documentation. No indication that this is the LAST payment, she can figure that out for herself.

She signs. This will "indicate" if necessary, to the court that he has paid ALL payments of $300 in full.

Its all I can think of at this point.

 

THANK you for your response!

It helps to have objective evaluations...

ESMOD's picture

Unfortunately, this will only indicate that he paid that one pmt for sure.. just because he writes a number down? it won't be close to enough "proof"

Perhaps if he can somehow get her to acknowledge that he has paid his legal obligation to her every month.. for the last "4 years" in a text might be help?

 

HowLongIsForever's picture

Not that I would encourage flippantly opening the flood gates but if emotional communication is the norm between them than responding in kind won't pique her curiosity or put her guard up.

If they have a habit of justifying themselves to each other something along the lines of but I've already paid you every month for four years could not only get an admission there but she could also tip him off to where she thinks she's going with it, too.  You might even be able to initiate settlement negotiations if she spills what she wants.

I hesitate to suggest something like that because your DH seems ill prepared to play the long game and would likely shoot himself in the foot, but if she regularly leaves enough rope to hang herself with that is something he should take advantage of.

Alimony being left wide open could be a huge issue for you guys, especially now that you're married and as she continues down this path of  insolvency.

Let us know what you find in the decree and any amendments filed with the court since the divorce was finalized. 

Don't forget that a document they've both agreed to and have been following will likely be seen by the court as enforceable even if they did not officially file those changes so be sure to include any of those in the big picture, too.

Fingers crossed the alimony loop has already been closed but if not, that is where I would focus my efforts.  

 

TimeToGo's picture

Weed isn't a "gray area", it's a legally licensed & taxable business. So this idiot is a street dealer, with no license, who has ZERO standing to say he gave/sold his ex weed, in lieu of Spousal Support. You obviously have no clue how much legal trouble he can get in for this. Even in our area of California. The city & state governments want their cut & they only get that through licensing, background checks, interviews, etc (all the fees) & taxes imposed on marijuana sales. He's screwed.

Moreover, he's not "unsophisticated", he's an idiot. He was advised by a Paralegal & YOU to get receipts & didn't. That isn't "unsophisticated", that's an idiot.

Moreover, you trust & believe him but he's a drug dealer who deals to his ex-wife, he's not a great guy, obviously. So you may as well consider that maybe he DIDN'T pay her, the months he doesn't have receipts for. 

CLove's picture

I do believe that she got the cash that he said she did, because otherwise she would be squealing hardcore.

Its just how to prove it. Ive spun out over this way too much already.

Thank you for your input...everything is of value.

Rags's picture

We got tired of the CS drama.  Mainly their pittance in CS dribbling in $20 here & $10 there to the CSE office until they had paid the $133/mo just in time for the next months CS to be due.  After 9 years of this crap I finally got DW to file for a CS review and to implement direct payroll withholding.  That sent the SpermIdiot into apoplexy.  Instead of SpetmGrand hag paying his CS to the CSE office he had to beg her to reimburse him for the CS taken out of his pay checks.  He had to cry to mommy every month.  We no longer had a few dollars here and there dribbling in.  The money was never critical for us but the direct withholding eliminated a ton of aggravation.

DPW's picture

I'm not often at a loss for words so give me a minute or two.....

Okay. Do you see a therapist? If not, I wish you would. I've read most of your posts and there are so many red flags in your life that I just want to grab you and scream in your face and say "WAKE THE F*CK UP". Sorry. You have unhealthy attachments. This is not a judgment, trust me; I speak from experience. 

CLove's picture

Cant afford one. Ive looked for free resources. I make too much.

Yes, I know my situation and my DH's way of dealing are all kinds of f*cked up.

We just bought a house together, and its my first marriage.

Thanks for the sentiment though.

Rags's picture

Any decision tends to be made with the information available at the time and second guessing is rarely time well spent.

In the case of what your DH agreed to, I can't see where it was a good decision in any light.

Good luck C.  I truly hope that you can keep DH's head in the game and mitigate as many of the risks as possible.  I would expect her to file for a CS mod and get, for all practical purposes, the same deal she had before only relabled as CS rather than a combination of CS and SS.  This time I truly hope that DH gets his head out of his butt, cuts her off from his services and pays her through the CSE system so he does not continue to expose himself and  you to the risk of TT crying to the courts that he has not paid CS.  His cash with no documentation model is insane.  At the very least he has to go to writting her checks for his CS with it clearly noted as "MARCH CHILD SUPPORT" in the comment line.  I suggest that you get a box of carbon copy checks so that there is absolute physical proof of how much was sent and what it was for.  That carbon copy book of checks can be corelated to the bank statement when she deposits it.

Good luck and take care of you.

CLove's picture

I flipped out on DH and his "cash/trade" model, presented him with potential outcomes and I think it sunk in.

Friday I took a half day and we marched into the courthouse, got a certified copy of his divorce documents.

I prepared a letter for her to sign stating that DH's spousal support has been paid in full.

She signed without any squealing or threats.

I agree and DH agrees that she will indeed file for more child support and the result will be the same amount he was paying, just re-labeled like you said.

The big win is that he will be able to say "no" to any more car repairing. No more DH car B!tch.

He DOES have the cabon copy check thing, as well as bank statements. 

I was even thinking of getting new checks with "special photos" of us printed...lol.

If she DOES take him back to court, Im definitely going to insist on the auto-payment system. She pesters him so much each month for "her child support check". Which is so blatantly not used for Munchkin SD13. Last month it was specifically use for her trip to Hawaii.

Rags's picture

Direct payroll withholding is absolutely a must.  We did it and that stopped my SS's CS from his SpermClan dribbling in $10-$20 at a time.  Of course they went ballistic when the SpermIdiot got $0 pay checks and then had to go to his parents for the money they had for years paid as CS to my DW for the SpermIdiot.

The best tools/weapons that anyone who has kids with a prior partner has is the CO and all of the supplemental jurisdictional rules, state regulations, Child Support Enforcement office services, applied ot keep the opposition X as tightly boxed in as possible.

With you in his court, DH has a chance of finally ending his career as BM's victim.

It may only take a request to the DA to start direct payroll withholding of CS from DH's pay and to get completely out of any discussion of money with BM.

HowLongIsForever's picture

Saw your blog and so glad the alimony is a done deal.  I don't know if there's a fee to file that signed document and incorporate it into the decree but I'd do it if at all possible, get it documented with the court.  If everyone signed notarized or witnessed then you shouldn't need additional signatures or agreement to file it.

As for the CS, it's so much easier when you set up automatic withholding.  It might cost DH a couple bucks extra (here the payor gets saddled with the participation fee, a couple dollars each month) but it would mean he has done his part at garnishment. 

He doesn't have to think about it once it's set up and proper withholding is in place.  He doesn't have to field BMs calls or demands about it.  He doesn't have to negotiate due dates, trade amounts, etc.  It will close one more avenue of contact between them.  

CLove's picture

Ive spoken to DH about the apps that are used for texting and communication. All the vile things she texts him...documented and admissable in court! He liked that one.

Ill have to see about getting the withholding order through. He might not be as amenable to that one, but its worth a try, if it means getting her off his back on a monthly basis.

We think she will more than likely file for an increase, but his income has not changed, custody has not changed. And if she did file for increase then no more "car b!tch", thats for certain.