STEPS with experience with PAS
Ok let me give a little history. BM use to share joint custody with DH. Long story short about 7 years ago unknown to us BM had TWO boyfriends, one lived with her and the kids. BOTH kids knew about both BF's and were told to lie and not only not tell DH about them BUT keep them secret from each of the guys. Quite the trick for at the time for a 4 year old and 8 year old. The live in BF traveled alot so when he was away BM would have the other BF over. This went on for OVER A YEAR. Well one night the BF that traveled alot decided to come home early only to find the other BF curled up shirtless on the couch next to BM and the kids. Well things turned ugly with a screaming match on the front yard and BM curled up in a ball crying hysterically on the porch with no regards to the kids. The next door neighbor witnessed this and called DH to come get the kids(it was DH/BM house when they we married so he knew DH). DH came got the kids who were both crying/scared and left. CPS was called, BM had supervised visitation and kids put in therapy.
Fast forward 7 years. BM MARRIED one of the BF's. (Yes one guy was dumb enough to marry her after all that and have a kid with her) Both STEP kids are totally screwed up and still in therapy and Have multiple mental heath issues. Now I'm definitely not saying what happened 7 years ago is to blame for everything BUT I think it was the start of it. BM is definitely not mentally stable. The court had a forensic evaluation done on all of us and found her to have narcissistic tendencies among other things.
This is my concern..BOTH BM and the husband are trying to turn the step kids against DH and I. How do we know this? Older step son who is 17 tells us. Both BM and the husband will fish around for information about our house. They never want to know anything good that happens only the bad stuff then they "reward" the kids with either staying up late, favorite food or sometime just over the top fake sympathy for telling them the bad stuff that happens had "dads house". I'm on the chunky side and they both encourage the kids to make fat jokes about me.
Now SS17 we are not worried about as he sees right through them BUT its SS11 that we are worried about. SS11 is very close to us but I fear BM and her husband maybe gettiing to him. SS17 says when hes over to BM's house all he talks about is how he wants to live there and he hates it at our house. SS11 will go on and on about how mean both DH and I am to him. BM loves to hear this SS17 says and rewards SS11. When we ask SS11 about this he says he never said that BUTgets defensive and refuses to talk about it which means hes lying.
These things are so hard to prove in court. SS17 already said he does not want to go to court and say anything. He wants to make it to 18 and just get out. So my question is do things usually just work themselfs out over time? Will SS11 see BM for a nutcase like SS17 when he gets older too?
Parental alienation is a
Parental alienation is a combination of the alienating parent's behavior, the targeted parent's response, and the child's reaction to it all. Some kids see right through it, like your SS17, and it either has no effect or puts them off the alienating parent.
Some kids are more fragile psychologically and are more easily alienated. And other kids kind of pretend to go along with it.
The key is - how does SS11 behave with you guys? Is he rude and oppositional? Or shut down? Does he refuse visitation? Does he spend all his time texting BM?
He could just be telling BM and her H what they want to hear to get those rewards and stop their pressure, but not really believe it. The key to knowing that is how he behaves in your home.
Don't bother with court, they are useless when it comes to alienation and BM will ramp it up if you do that. You are better off working with SS11, not to confront him, but help him be more resilient.
Very Good Response Tog!
Very Good Response Tog!
Wow great answer
SS11 is fine around us. He has behavioral problems but its no different for us then anyone else. Whenever SS11 has to be around both DH and BM(school event/sports) hes VERY withdrawn/quiet. He's VERY careful not to be to friendly to either me or DH in front of BM. I could be wrong but I think for right NOW SS11 is just desperate for approval for BM. He's just looking for any way to get positive attention from her as he does love her dearly. Sad. I think SS11 known this is what BM wants to hear so he does/says these things but really does not feel this way. YET....This is my fear. SS11 love for his mom and wanting to make her happy goes very deep. SS17 will be leaving for college nexy year so SS11 will be left alone with these nutcases to do thier dirt work. So I guess in your opinion what is the best course of action can we take with SS11 in making him more resilient?
DH has to be the one to talk
DH has to be the one to talk to him - let him know that he is aware of this pressure that SS is under, that it's okay for SS to love both parents, etc, etc.
It may not work at all, but it doesn't sound like he's really alienated, because he's fine at your house - but as you said the pressure could increase.
Same thing is happening to
Same thing is happening to SD12 by her BM. She just shut down....barely speaks at our house...won't take off her shoes..won't go upstairs where the kids rooms are. She will, however, speak and be normal if we go somewhere of her choosing or buy her something.....
A this point, after 2 years of dealing with it....I don't even mention it to DH as he seems not to even attempt to do anything about it and he sees her less and less as times goes by. So for ME personally, I hope the PAS keeps up and in a couple of years SD won't ever want to come over......I'm done raising my toddler in this insane enviroment......I'm done living with the nonsense.....my older kids think my DH and his entire family are complete lunatics....so.....there is NOTHING that you are I or anyone can about the PAS.......in my opinion at least.
A parent teaching kids to hate never ends well.
Especially when it's the other parent. Even though your SS17 seems to be "on" to BM's behavior, it still doesn't mean it hasn't taken it's toll. I find it very telling that he has said he just wants to get out. The question is what will an emotionally damaged 18 year old find out there when he does get out? His story isn't done and there may be some serious damage in his future, depending on how he will adapt once he is legally on his own. Drugs, drinking, dangerous behaviors, etc.
When a boy is taught to hate his father it WILL affect him, even if he recognizes that BM was wrong for doing it. That kind of sh~t runs pretty deep and twists its way into a person's psyche. It will most certainly affect his view of, and relationships with, women. And men.
It might very well happen that SS18 disappears and completely disengages from his family. Which means, ultimately, that your DH will "lose" him anyway.
The same will hold true for the younger SS and it's already twisting him as you've experienced with his comments and attitude towards his father and you.
The problem is therapy isn't the answer to everything. It may and can help, but only if the environment changes. Even if PAS were against the law, it could be proven, and BM were ordered to stop doing it, it is still an insidious activity that is hard to stop. After all these years, BM is hard-wired to poisoning her kids minds. I don't see it stopping.
My SO's ex-wife (and her family) alientated his kids their entire life. The skids were taught that BM's family was the ONLY family that mattered, that their culture/language was the ONLY one that was worth knowing, that BM's parenting was the ONLY one that counted, BM's signifcant others/husband is the ONLY one to be welcomed and included, etc.
Result: Alienation against a parent causes more damage and dysfunction in children and families than just about anything else. And many times, it cannot be fixed. Your DH must steel himself to the fact that his sons may already be (emotionally) lost to him. And BM can look in the mirror and be "proud" of her handiwork.
Yes, this is true. It's very
Yes, this is true. It's very damaging to long-term capacity to have meaningful relationships, and people who have been alienated are much more likely to have depression and addictions.
My SS19 is back now after 3 years of alienation, but he's very damaged and his relationship with DH may never recover. He still believes every word BM says even though they fight all the time. He's 100% dependent on her in a very unhealthy way.
It's very sad.
2Tired4Drama~ this is truly
2Tired4Drama~ this is truly heart breaking that a parent would go through such great lengths to make their kids hate their other parent. This impacts their self esteem, self worth, they have lack of trust, and leads to depression. This is straight up child abuse and BM shouldn't have custody of those kids.......
The alienating parent often can have their spouse join
Join in on the alienation. The kids being withdrawn is normal because its been so ingrained on them to hate the alienated parent and theirwhole family.
they lack social communication skills so you’ll often find them recluse.
how bored and vengeful can people be that they need to know whats going on at other ex-spouses home and their new partner...
the hatred for the ex spouse means more than being a nurturing parent. In op situation the bio mum feels no responsibility for any of the issues but the fact hubby got custody of the kids that irks and pisses her off
And this article is really
And this article is really interesting...http://parentalalienationresearch.com/PDF/2001warshak.pdf
OR this more recent one: https://www.safetylit.org/citations/index.php?fuseaction=citations.viewd...
Induced parental alienation is a specific form of psychological child abuse, which is listed in DSM-5, the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association (APA), under diagnostic code V 995.51 "child psychological abuse". Untreated induced parental alienation can lead to long-term traumatic psychological and physical effects in the children concerned. This fact is still not given sufficient attention in family court cases. The article gives a condensed overview of parental alienation, summarising its definition, the symptoms and the various levels of severity. It also describes some major alienation techniques and possible psychosomatic and psychiatric effects of induced parental alienation. Finally, attention is drawn to programmes of prevention and intervention now used and evaluated in some countries. The article concludes with two real-life examples from psychiatric practice, and a comprehensive list of international references.
Loyalty Bind
I have had numrous disussions with Munchkin SD13. About "triggers". Because I will say something or something will happen, and it will be a pretty minor thing and she will sob like the entire worlds coming to an end. And then all heck breaks loose and I have accusations thrown at me.
If I dance around things, it gets her thinking. These children absorb more than we know. So you can talk around things, instead of direct accusations. Direct accusations causes conflict in kids that are in what is called a "loyalty bind". If you research those, youll see how it applys to your situation with your SS's.
So your eldest SS. Where is he going when he "gets out"? Munchkin SD13 ALREADY knows that our house is healthier, more solid and stable and she simply likes it better, plus her sister lives at BM's apartment for now. She has continually asked when she can "decide where to live full time". My response is always "18, you belong to yourself then, and we are more than happy to have you live here with us full time, working a job and going to college, living your life and being a strong happy independent person."
The youngest, you can gently acknowledge and explain that you understand there is much conflict to deal with going back and forth. You can mention that you know he loves both mom and dad, but they live in separate homes now. You dont want to know mom and her husbands business and your business is your business. Then you simply keep things quiet and do not discourse in front of kiddo.
We had some issues over the past few years and it took munchkin a while to get that concept. We probably overshared with her, but we wanted her to know the consequences of her actions. For example Toxic Troll enjoys putting DH down, and me as well. She likes to accuse us falsely of abuse. So Munchkin knows that our business is our business.
I flat out told her last year that if she wants to cry to her mother and sister about everything, instead of letting me know when I upset her, then she will lose me completely. That I will disengage from her completely. I told her "hey, Im going to pi$$ you off sometimes, Im going to be cranky sometimes, but that doesnt change the fact that I care for you. That I am here for you when you need me."
It seems to have worked. But your younger SS - only time will tell, but these are some things we did.
Time for some fun.
Time for some fun.
Create fake receipts for expensive vacations, jewelry purchases, new cars, and bank and investment account statements with huge balances. Pepper them around the house and let the Skids seen them then run to BM and her toxic spermdonor.
Keep it up, wind them up, and when they go to court for more money you can honestly testify that you have never purchased those things and don't have the accounts that BM is freaking out about.
Have fun!
And.. work with the Skids, keep them fully informed regarding the facts of BM, the CO, etc, etc, etc ... in an age appropriate manner PAS is a fact but courts lack the intelligence and testicular fortitude to go after a PASing parent. Facts counter PAS, prepare the Skids to protect themselves from manipulation by the PASind parent as they progress to adulthood, and allow the kids to recognize when the toxic parent is PASing them.
It worked well for us in preparing SS to protect himself from the toxic manipulations of his SpermClan while he was growing up and his knowledge of the facts relating to the SpermClan and their manipulative and toxic depravity keeps them from manipulating him as an adult. Any interface he has with them is on his terms. They know not to pull their usual shit because he will call them on it immediately.
Good luck. I hope that your Skids survive their BM to become viable adults of character. It sounds like SS-17 is doing fairly well. You may also want to consider having SS-17 speak to CPS about the manipulative bribery crap going on at BM's.