Has anyone been successful enforcing visitation?
Has anyone been successful at enforcing parenting time when the kids refuse to visit? My husband is getting nowhere with the family court system and his attorney says there’s nothing else he can do, but he’s going to keep filing.
I keep reading legal advice that say that the law is 100% on my husband's side. But in reality the family court system won't do anything.
My husband has been fighting for almost 2 years now and has minimal contact with his kids (his son will be 16 in 2 weeks and his daughter is 13). They won’t talk to him on the phone or email.
The judge has admitted that BM is violating the custody order and in contempt of court but won’t take away custody from her and has done nothing other than ordering the kids to do more counseling. The judge and the kids’ GAL are both are heavily biased against him and BM has spun everything to justify what she’s doing. One of the things they are saying is that he's not involved in his kids lives but this is all because the kids won’t speak to him and BM won't give him any information about their school or activities.
There’s no legal reason that he should be denied visitation but the judge is basically letting the kids decide if they want to visit and decide where they want to live even though BM is breaking the law.
The attorney said it’s very rare in our county for anyone to be prosecuted for interfering with visitation in these types of cases. He doesn’t think we have a chance at all and should just drop it.
It’s really infuriating dealing with this. If it was my husband not paying child support, you know they would prosecute him for that, but nothing is done when the custody order isn’t being followed.
Is there anything we can do? This has been an absolutely emotional rollercoaster. We went from thinking the kids may be coming to live with us if he got primary custody away from BM to now having to decide if this is a lost cause.
Do I even want these kids here? I can't believe some of the stories I'm reading here about how terrible teen stepkids treat their stepmoms and I'm afraid of what will happen if their mom does lose custody and they have to move in.
Has DH contacted the school
Has DH contacted the school and gotten a parental password to their system? Emails for teachers? Have you tried looking at their Facebook pages? Googling their names? Looking up the local clubs for their sports, etc.
DH needs to start just showing up (without you) and quietly supporting his kids. He needs to show them that he still cares. Especially with the 16 year old, court is likely a waste of time as he can dig in his heels until he turns 18 . It is better if DH can try and build a relationship.
He knows what school they
He knows what school they attend but it's a small Christian school. I doubt they have an online grade system. Dealing with teachers and others at the school is difficult because things have been spun against him.
The kids and BM claim he's harrassing them, say he's tried to kidnap them (which is what they refer to as enforcing visitiation) and have told everyone at the school about how the marriage ended and spun that to make him seem as negative as possible.
He tried to speak to one of his son's teachers last year, but the teacher said he didn't want to be involved. He should have taken the custody order into the school, but he didn't want to make a big scene. He also went to his son's cross country met, but other parents asked him to leave. They hear "kidnap" and believe he's done something to harm his kids.
He would like to be involved, but BM moved them prior to even filing for divorce so they live in a different town. It's in the custody order that BM provide transport because she moved them.
There is nothing legally in
There is nothing legally in any state that says a minor at a certain age can say they don't need to visit their non-custodial parent. They can't pick and choose which laws they don't want to follow.
That's why my husband is so furious about this situation. There's very clear legal statutes about this but the judge doesn't want to rock the boat because the kids' opinions on where they want to go to school and live is more important than my husband's legal rights and BM can get away with violating a legal ruling.
Every time the Skids do not
Every time the Skids do not get on a plane to visit or do not show up for his CO'd visitation your DH needs to file a contempt motion against BM. BM is the root cause of the problem and it is she that should be held accountable and who should feel the pain or her manipulative and toxic behavior.
No exceptions. Each time she fails to deliver the children on time file contempt charges. Contempt can be a crime and conviction for contempt can me included in a criminal and arrest record depending on the nature of the contempt. Repeated filings could show up on her CBCs. Even if she is never convicted of contempt of court an arrest will have impact on her if anyone ever runs a CBC for a job, credit, etc....
So, smack the crap out of her and if the judge will not step up and put her ass in jail for violating the CO then shop for another judge.
ZERO tolerance works. We used it to enforce visitation regulations against my SS-20's SpermIdiot (the NCP). When the SpermClan would deviate from the visitation schedule by not returning the SKid on time we smacked the crap out of them with the CO. EVERY TIME!!!
So, roll up your CO and smack BM on the nose with it when she deviates. If BM is eventually perp walked to jail for contempt then the Skids will realize that there are rules and there are consequences for not following them. At least then your DH can start building a relationship with his children even it the starting point is having to review the CO with them line by line and sharing the facts of their BM's behavior with them so that they get a clear and factual picture of how their BM has manipulated them and scoffed the law.
All IMHO of course and good luck.
Thank you for your
Thank you for your advice.
That sounds very much what my husband has been trying to do but the issue is that the district attorney will not prosecute BM for being in contempt of court or interferring with visitation. It comes down to lack of resources and difficulty in proving that she willfully violated the court order and also BM lives in different county 45 miles away. The one time they did charge her they eventually dropped all charges because the DA’s office didn’t want to bother having to take it to trial. BM has an attorney representing her free of charge - her cousin’s husband.
For her to be held accountable, our attorney says they have to prove she's the one preventing the kids from visiting. She claims the kids do not want to go, they leave and she has no idea where they are. I would think it would be a CPS issue but no one goes after her for that either. So they have to prove that she absolutely without a doubt told the kids to not see their dad.
My husband has done everything possible to make sure that the custody order is enforceable. There are times and dates and very specific details about when and how exchanges are suppose to be made so that the police can see BM is violating the order. But it’s incredibly frustrating. First he was told by the sheriff’s office his order wasn’t enforceable and then when he went back to court to make sure it was, they said they said take it to family court and they wouldn’t get involved.
The leverage he had was BM goes to jail if the kids don’t visit and he gets primary custody. But the judge all but said he’s not going to switch custody because the kids like their school and feel justified in not wanting to visit their dad.
The kids keep using his constant attempts to visit and enforce his rights against him too. They've told their therapists and GAL that they feel their dad is harrassing them, trying to use the police to kidnap them and wants to put their mom in jail. When he's tried to explain to them why, they've told their GAL that their dad was trying to turn them against their mom. There is no way to win.
"First he was told by the
"First he was told by the sheriff’s office his order wasn’t enforceable and then when he went back to court to make sure it was, they said they said take it to family court and they wouldn’t get involved."
You are expecting the police to do something. The police are not going to do anything because this is a family court matter, not a criminal matter.
Rags told you that you have to file contempt charges. Not call the police, file contempt charges in family court. Every time dad is supposed to have the kids, he goes to BM's house to pick the kids up. He needs to document every time he shows up and the kids are not there.
Someone can chime in and say how long dad should do this, but after he has a good history of documentation THEN you file contempt charges in FAMILY court. I'm surprised your attorney hasn't told you how to do this. This is family law 101.
He has filed for contempt and
He has filed for contempt and interfering with visitation repeatedly and this spring/summer for primary custody based on the history of interfering with visitation. Still nothing has happened.
If the custody order is not enforceable, then BM can weasel of interfering with it. You have to have documentation and proof she interfered, which is why you have to call the police and show that the handoff did not happen. Only saying the kids didn’t show up so BM is in contempt doesn’t work.
Some father’s rights sites have detailed instructions on how to get the police to enforce custody orders, so it can happen and but it's never worked for my husband and the sheriff's office in BM's county doesn't even respond to his phone calls anymore.
My husband right now is focused on trying to build the case against BM so the DA won’t drop the ball. The judge already hasn’t done anything when he’s gone to family court because he’s already made up his mind that he doesn’t want my husband to get the kids.
I’m not sure about filing each and every time because BM and the kids claim he’s harassing them and the GAL has said the kids’ are in major stress over this so ramping up things probably would piss off the judge more than anything. He knows what will happen if he tossed BM in jail for violating the CO so he lets everything BM does slide in favor of mediation and counceling for the kids. He's all but said that not seeing his kids is what my husband gets for protecting his assets during his divorce and cheating on BM.
"He's all but said that not
"He's all but said that not seeing his kids is what my husband gets for protecting his assets during his divorce and cheating on BM."
UGH, that sucks. It seems both the judge and the GAL are letting their personal opinions influence their decisions in this case.
My Dh filed for Contempt for
My Dh filed for Contempt for interferring with COed visitation. We had TWO PAGES (one incident per line on lined notebook paper) and all he got was....nothing.
The judge issued a "Contempt of Court for Willful Violation of Visitation" - fine was $500 payable by BM to DH. She never paid. He withheld it from his share of the 50% of medical expenses she would over inflate.
$500 for not seeing his kids for almost 6 months. Not even any "make up" visits. That got BM to follow the CO for about....oh....three months. Then it was back to the same.
Since the lawyer cost more than the fine, we couldn't afford to keep up the court attack. The skids are now PASed against my DH and he has only seen his only grandson ONCE when he was 3 months old.
Family Court is a JOKE in most states.
Our BM hasn't even been
Our BM hasn't even been fined. The judge cited her for contempt and then her attorney got her out of paying the fine. She has an attorney working with her for free (her cousin's husband) who's well-known in the county as a criminal defence lawyer. He's the type of creep who gets gets people of off domestic violence and drunk driving charges on technicallities. BM fits right in with his crowd. She can do whatever she wants and can drag things out bankrupting us.
We've tried to get BM to pay our attorney fees, but even when the judge admitted she was involation of the court order, she's never been forced to do that. And he has to pay half for the GAL and the court-order counseling for the kids that has been used against him.
The family court system here has no teeth and isn't going to send anyone to jail other than guys not paying child support. Interference with visitation and contempt of court are criminal offenses. But the court system is too overwhelmed to deal with it.
Our attorney said that when the DA's office is letting people acussed of violent crimes walk because they don't have the resources to prosecute they aren't going to even consider prosecuting even if you hand them a slamdunk case involving visitation, no matter what the father's rights groups and books wants dads to believe.
My husband has posted on a couple of boards for divorced dads about this and they're just up in arms that you can point to the legal statute being violated and prove a crime is committed and the people taxpayers are paying to arrest and prosecute criminals shrug and say they won't do anything.
My husbands ex-wife had tried
My husbands ex-wife had tried that and we filed two petitions in family court...one for contempt, a court order is a legal binding contract the court have to adhere to as they are the ones who said it was to be followed through with. The second petition was a writ of habeas corpus...which the court orders the physical appearance of the children to the courts, from there the judge hears the case and for us determined there was no reason for her to withhold the kids. we got instant visitation custody. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way the courts actually see things is you need all proper filings, petitions, and documentation to show just cause for actions. Also don't forget a key element here...whatever the judge says when the attorney files for signature make sure it states EXACTLY what the judge indicates as punishment and then if it occurs again you can use the filing to petition for follow through!!! And we understand the need for specific modifications, which we ourselves are currently compiling.
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GOOD LUCK::))
Thanks. I'll tell my DH about
Thanks. I'll tell my DH about the writ of habeas corpus. I remember once he was trying to get the court to order the kids to appear, but the GAL and/or judge didn't want them them because it was a high-conflict situation that would expose them to more stress. Nevermind that DH legal rights are being trampled on because SD will have a panic attack she's anywhere near her father.
I was successful with a kid
I was successful with a kid under 14. Frankly if they're 14 or over (and 13 is close enough) with a PAS mother there is little he can do. Even if he did force the kids to be transported to his home all they would do is sit around being miserable.
If he insists he must throw money he can have his attorney take the matter to the state which should have some sort of judicial review panel. In theory if a judge is not enforcing the law they can force the judge to reconsider. But they are extremely reluctant to do so and for obvious reasons. Once judges are routinely second guessed successfully then every decision will be second guessed. The system falls apart.
My advise to your man, if here were here, is to stop all contact with his children. Zero. No calls, no holiday cards set aside gifts, nothing. By making it clear that he's quit he takes all power away from his ex-wife and the kids. Like most teenagers if a parent wants something then they don't. If a parent doesn't want something they do.
If he has the courage to walk away from this then it's likely that as they mature they will see how they were manipulated by their mother and re-establish communication. There is no guarantee but the odds are on the fathers side. But its important that he cut communication cleanly and completely. Not even a text or email. For now its as if they don't exist.
My question for Orange County
My question for Orange County (or anyone else who’s SO has walked away from their kids): what was your extended family and friends’ reactions?
BM wants the kids (and everyone else) to believe that their dad is an evil, cheating SOB who walked out on them. If DH decides to have no contact, he does exactly that and he doesn’t want to give her that satisfaction.
He owns a small local business that relies on his customer base and word-of-mouth. He doesn’t want there to be any validity to BM’s bashing of him since that has been damaging to his business.
I’d hope the kids would be able to see through all of BM’s manipulation, but it’s easier for them to target their dad and continue to blame him for their parent’s divorce and everything wrong in their lives. He’s gone on to be happy and even the kids admit their mom’s life is a complete wreck. All they blame is what ended their parent’s marriage not everything that led to it or how immaturely their mom handled the divorce.
All of this is wonderful info
All of this is wonderful info accept for 1 thing, its not her responsibility to bring them to him, its his responsibility to get them and hers to have the kids available for Dad. So long as she's doing that everywhere will see she's done her part and its his problem to "make" them go. At their age's, good luck with that. My 2 SKS won't go with their bm unless an officer physically forces them which they won't do for their own various private reasons. We support the kids because its about the kids...not the parents. Goodluck!
It's in the CO that BM
It's in the CO that BM provides transportation, since she was the one who moved across the state. However, my DH does go to try to pick them up since in court, he was having a difficult time arguing that. BM has a lot of problems that she claims prevents her from driving.
When my DH tries to pick up the kids, no one is home. The house is completely dark and no one answers the door. So, BM is not making sure the kids are home and available to go to visitation. She's allowing (and likely) helping them hide.
Things have been tough on our
Things have been tough on our end too. But, we email the teachers, counselors and coaches at least twice a week. We make it our job to stay informed. It helps when we do talk to the kids - they hear what we know and it makes them known that we know about every aspect of their lives - with us - or not.
I dont see how this bio would lose custody of her kids - is there a reason you think that would happen? or is it to be spiteful because she withholds them from you now?
"I dont see how this bio
"I dont see how this bio would lose custody of her kids - is there a reason you think that would happen?"
Because BM hasn't been complying with the CO. Other judges have awarded the non-custodial parent custody in cases like this.
In our case, the judge has acknowledged the BM is in clear violation of the CO but won't go as far as to give my DH custody.