Can dynamics change?
I've posted a few times here about a difficult situation in which SKids, particularly SD, are disrespectful, rude, and make it clear they don't want anything to do with me. Both feel they have "ownership" at our house and act as if they're in charge. They're grown adults now, and these patterns have existed through our ten year marriage. (to be clear, I have discussed this with my husband ad nauseam, and asked him to address the situation, but very little has been done. He says, "I'll talk to them," but I'm never part of those conversations so it's a triangulated communication pattern instead of a direct one." My question is this: has anyone in this forum experienced a situation in which a long-standing pattern of disrespectful behavior from step kids actually changed? Part of me believes my husband should step up and intervene. But I think I should be the one to address situations as they occur, rather than expecting my husband to intervene. However, when he behaves as though her behavior is ok, I look like a b_tch if I address it. He believes, and others have said, it should be addressed by him with her alone, so as not too, embarrass her. Perhaps she should be embarrassed if she's behaving like a brat at age 28? I believe it should be addressed in the moment, in a direct assertive but not sarcastic way (ie "Do you want to try that again because I don't allow people to speak to me like that.") DH says this will embarrass her and make her mad. I say, if he supports me and makes it clear he agrees with me, she'll either behave appropriately or not come around. (Problem is he then goes and does things with her making it known I'm not welcome, which I believe suggests I'm the problem.) I know, family dynamics are difficult, particularly stepfamily dynamics. But if I invited someone into my home and my child, or my spouse for that matter, was disrespectful and rude to them, I would likely call attention to this behavior and let them know I wasn't ok with it. At the very least, I might be quiet and let my friend address the disrespectful behavior, letting my spouse or child know that I agreed with my friend. I'm not a child and I don't need to be defended, per se. But on the other hand, because I didn't raise this child, I don't already have a relationship based on respect like I do with my own children. The thing is, I would never tolerate letting my children treat my husband the way he lets his children treat me. Hesays he can't make them like me. And they clearly don't. But I believe he can make it clear that it's our home, and that they're not in charge. Does anyone have success stories and getting similar dynamics to improve?
Hesays he can't make them
he can't make them like you but he can expect/demand them to be respectful, and he is choosing not to do that. It sounds to me like if you confronted SD in the moment (an idea I like), that would create conflict with you and DH. Can things change? Yes. But I think it would take a serious commitment to marital counseling with a therapist who specializes in step situations. Your DH seems deep in it and appears to have his priorities mixed up.
The fact...
...that it has been 10 years makes it more difficult. What you permit you promote. I was in favor of 'nipping' things ASAP, though it took my husband a few months to get 100% on board with that approach. Now we both say "nip it" and we laugh. I see that as great progress.
It is not up to your DH how
It is not up to your DH how you address things with your SD, and him saying it will "embarrass her and make her mad" is not relevant. As long as you say things to her respectfully, you can say anything you want to her, it is not up to him. He is in favour of triangulation, obviously, but it doesn't mean you have to go along with it. I am with you in feeling you should address things with her as they come up. My life isn't a good advert for this, because I did it in 2022 and now I am estranged from SD28, because she took it badly, insulted me and I decided I was done. Your husband doesn't want you to rock the boat with your SD, but in the end it's not his call.
Does this woman have a job?
Does this woman have a job? What are her plans for moving into a place of her own? If she has none, why not?
Sorry I wasn't clear. SD
Sorry I wasn't clear. SD works and lives in another city. She is very responsible, bright etc. What I've described happens whenever she visits. She feels ownership of our home and acts like she's in charge. DH gave her much more say in things when she was younger due to family dynamics (BM was alcoholic and not available. BM then died when SD was 14.) DH treated her more like an adult. She was encouraged to give her ideas and DH bounced things off her like you might a spouse. So you can see how she got the idea that she's in charge.
Definitely call her out, each
Definitely call her out, each and every time. Be polite but firm. Remind her that she no longer lives here and that it is your home now. Afterwards, make it clear to your husband that YOU are queen of the castle and that there is only ever ONE queen per castle and he'd better remember who that is!
Also
He needs to understand that YOUR feelings take priority over hers. Maybe remind him of his wedding vows, "forsaking all others." You're not asking him to forsake her completely, simply to put her in her place and make her respect your position as lady of the house.
My SD is similar. She was
My SD is similar. She was given way too much power and adult status as a child, and then spousal status when DH and BM divorced.
I learned recently that kids given unearned power and praise have tendencies toward narcissism. Yep, that fits. SD always chose the best, was the best, more talented, and smarter than any other human ever. So of course she grew up believing that and believes that her opinions are superior to mine, DH's, everybody's.
Yep - this is a SKID playbook
Yep - this is a SKID playbook. The dynamics won't change IMHO but YOU can change the chess board with enforced boundaries. Many many of these SKIDs are narcissists and that's not changing.
It’s up to DH to fix this
He must tell her she is a guest and must live by house rules. At 28 she should be looking for a apartment to move into
My Thoughts
While I believe these men we married or cohabitate with SHOULD be disciplining THEIR kids (regardless of age) and especially adults coming into your home being disrespectful; problem is, our men DO NOT do their parental jobs.
Most stuff can be let go but not this.....I'd address it and address it tough with said ADULT SD. I told both my kids this when my DH and I met and also when their dad re-coupled. "You may not like DH/SM, but you WILL be respectful in our homes." It worked fine for us as today, we all have good relationships. I would not tolerate this treatment in my home and have actually "thrown out" one of DHs adult daughters for being disrepectful to me. When you make your stand, expect push back, tears, and lots of projection. Just stand strong on your expectations and remember, boundaries are your friend.
On your question about "can dynamics change." I tolerated toxic treament for 12 years to MY detremint. The final straw was Feb 2018 when I went to zero contact with DHs adult kids. But not before I CLEARLY told them why and what I would NEVER tolerate from them again. DH saw them away from our home and we kept conversations about them to a minimum. I spent 3 years healing from what I let happen. I am now healed and standing strong.
I went SIX years without seeing any of DHs kids. This past year, we've began a slow intergration. I have seen DHs youngest son (the least of the problems) and that went well. His oldest daughter, a source of much troubles, visited our home in July for 3 days and it went well. I am civil and kind but very superficial in our talk and interactions. When his daughter was here, I was "absent" a lot, doing things with friends. But our few interactions were nice and we had decent conversations. Again, nothing deep. But things did go well so DH and I will be in her city next month and I invited her to join us for a day of touring and dinner.
I do not know what the future holds. After 12 years of hell and 6 years of compete disengagement, I don't have hope that we will ever have anything deep and I'm okay with that. What I do want is for my husband to see his kids in his Senior years. While we are still healthy, we all know travel will eventually be something not easy, so they will need to come here. As long as everyone is repsectful, I have no issues with them coming here. After a six year "no contact" period, they are all very aware of what needs to be done. They also know any bad behaviors will be their "last strike" and they'll never be welcome here again. So, 2 down, 3 to go. Time will tell.
Best to you. It's going to be a bit of a journey with you standing up for yourself and setting boundaries. Do it.
Firm believer in nipping
Firm believer in nipping disrespect in the bud there and then. If you leave it for DH to deal with, the moment is gone and the impact of dealing with it becomes like a discussion and it's not ideal.
My GP said to be me (when we were discussing my mental health) there is nothing wrong with correcting a child's behaviour, and ensure it's dealt with in that moment. So if your SD28 acts up like a child, treat her like one in that moment and correct her bad behaviour for sure.
Start calling them out
Start calling them out directly just as you have outlined in your OP. Who gives a shit it makes her mad and do not give a shit if it highlights DH's lack of balls.
If I were you, I would not only rub the noses of the toxic spawn in their disrespectful stench I would call daddy out his lack of balls at the same time to his face, in front of his toxic spawn.
Lather.... rinse.... repeat.
Drive them away and make sure once they are gone if daddy goes running after them you go with him. Tolerate no secret squirrel bullshit from him or them.
Grrrrrr.
Effective change is not a
Effective change is not a destination, it is a never ending journey. I have made a significant part of my career on change agency, leadership, and management. It takes a structured process to be effective.
Initially it is imperative that the current state is assessed and understood. Next is to clearly define the key goals that the change will focus on delivering. Then the change structure is designed to close the gap between the current state and the desired state. Having a measurement and accountability system is critical to a successful change to occur and lock in. Locking it in is the lynch pin of successful change. If you do not lock it in by continually monitoring the behaviors of those targeted in the change effort, don't waste your time.
Many change efforts kick off with ghusto, proceed to the implementation phase, then fail when the pocket veto is continually played by key players who really do not want the change.
In organizational change often it gets to the point where terminating one or more key people in opposition to the change is the final major effort to lock it in for everyone else and make it the new normal rather than a short term effort.
In family change, the equivalent of firing is ostracizing the non participants with escalating abject misery if they fail to get on board. They play ball or the live exclusion. They can play ball, or they can stay away. There cannot be a mid range tolerance of them if they do not engage in the changed dynamic. In our experience with my IL clan, that person tends to self isolate while trying to play the guilt card on everyone else. It is critical that they not be reengaged into the family except in full compliance with the change.
Having a process and a monitoring method eliminates much of the emotional heart strings stuff since it quantifies compliance to a yes or no measurement. Tears do not matter. Being upset does not matter. Only compliance or lack of compliance matter. Those who engage and comply enjoy acceptance, those who don't are not accepted.
Period. Dot.
KISS
IMHO and experience of course.
To paraphrase, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that family change involves: 1) clearly identify the current state or situation, 2) define the change that needs to be made to achieve desired state, and reasons why change needs to be made (who benefits, why family system is better off, etc) 3) identify what and who needs to change, how they need to change, and behaviors that can be measured in clear yes or no terms that will bring family from current state to desired state 4) clearly communicate desired behavior changes to all and consequences if behaviors stay the same (new rules and boundaries are not adhered to) 5) ostracize family members who don't comply with the new rules and boundaries.
While the way you've presented this seems a bit militant, you do point out the major reason why things haven't changed--DH is unwilling to have clear boundaries and clear consequences.
If I suggested the above steps, my DH would have no part of this. First, I don't know that we could agree on anything but step one, and I'm not even sure of that. Our major downfall is that it's not clear who is in this "family" and who is out...and who is "in charge." These are major hurdles. Pretty sure SKids don't consider me or my kids part of their family. I've got no agency in my own life in this "family unit," because the unit is basically DH and his kids. Unless my husband and I are on the same page, there won't be change as there's no way to enforce consequences.
If my DH did try this, there's a good chance both of his kids would stop interacting with him, essentially ostracizing him. He wouldn't be able to live with that.
In other words...I have no "pocket veto," but my DH and his kids do.
Your synopsis is far more
Your synopsis is far more clear than my mind dump on change. Something that is critical can most effectively managed if it measured. Though there is not any spread sheeted data, there are the facts. You and DH know them and you keeping DH regularly seasoned with those facts and you smacking his toxic spawn with them regularly drives change. There is far more to a yes/no litmus test. Behaviors are generally not just binary measurements. I would think of this more like a preponderance of the evidence thing than as a data thing.
There is no need to ostracize people who do not change. But it is critical that their crap not be tolerated and that it is confronted each and every time they pull it, in real time, in front of everyone present. As well as everyone being updated on it whether they were present or not.
You indicate that DH could not handle his toxic failed family breeding refuse cutting him off completely. Can he tolerate the end of your marriage if he does not man up, grow and a pair, and deal effectively with the breeding refuse? Can you live your best life if nothing changes?
Please take care of you. Your life and marriage should not be continually sacrificed on the alter of SParental martyrdom to a failed parent and failed family baggage.
Both feel they have
but do they pay bills in that house though???
Yeah when the man of the house actually runs the house instead running around the house
I Agree With You Wholeheartedly!
The thing is, your DH has daddy guilt, which is why he allows her to treat you however she pleases, without redirection. That's not love, it's co-dependency. As long as he refuses to present as a united front with her or anyone else for that matter, it's sending the message, it's ok. Him not saying or doing anything corrective, embarrassing or not, is in itself a choice. His silence is her affirmation. She is becoming emboldened by not being corrected. Who cares if she's embarrassed? At 28 she clearly knows better! Does anyone care about your feelings? It doesn't appear so, just you.
Until DH realizes whose husband he is, I'm afraid this battle will be ongoing.