Why do you think kids ditch dad/dad's house?
It's amazing to me the number of people that post about their skid(s) eventually no longer contacting or coming around to their dad's house. And I'm not saying "and that's because everyone loves it here at my house." It's because it's starting here so I'm curious. I know some of it is because the skids go to school in BMs district. But it's also happening when there's no school. And DH even agrees to it or calls to talk to them and tells them to stay there (because of x, y, or z thing).
And my DS (my bio) spends time at our house BUT he still spends an equal amount of time at his dad's/my XHs house even though we haven't stuck completely with the schedule since he started his junior year of HS. And he keeps me pretty well informed of where he's gonna be and we don't usually have the "just stay there" discussions.
I don't think that it's that this house is more toxic or unfriendly or has too many rules.
Why do you think it's that dad/dad's house is the one that gets dumped so easily?
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Could be a number of things
1. If parents do not live close, and they go to school in mom's district, even if school not in session, their friends will be there.
2. Not to be sexist, but in most houses, the woman makes the rules. Kids feel more comfortable with mom. Women more likely to work PT, flex time, and be able to not give up time.
3. Dad does not take all his time, and kids just end up more comfortable at moms
#2 and 3 seem to be what I see on this site
FWIW, I think the difference between DS and the skids is that XH and I were divorced for a lot longer than BM and DH when I met DH so for a good number of years DS had the same routine. And the routine was: we follow the schedule regardless of who will be at the house. For example if one of us traveled, we did not move DS, DS still was at that parents house and that parent found care at that house. We were all about the schedule since all three of us did better with a set schedule. It’s not typical but it worked for us.
For BM and DH it was all about ROFR. And DH travels for his job. BM at one point want to add a clause to their CO that no “step” anything could watch a child ever (right after we got married and that conveniently still allowed her BF to watch them). Since they were all about “my time with the kids” and very competitive when it came to being the “better” parent this set up a dynamic where the skids could pretty much say where they wanted to be. Add in DHs travel, that he lost the HS debate so they are in her district, DHs desire to be the tolerant friendly dad, and his inability to be consistent with rules here so it’s confusing for them when they do and don’t apply, and the skids have gotten used to being at BMs.
BM usually tell
skids that dad's house is optional especially if dad DARES not provide 24/7 entertainment.
Not sure. It hasn't happened
Not sure. It hasn't happened here yet but SD is still very young. We do live in the same school district as BM and that's unlikely to change.
If SD ever ditches dad I think it might be because she has a half sister at BM's and she may never have a half sibling here. Though SD likes being an only child here.
Here's why I stopped going to
Here's why I stopped going to my dad's house at around 16:
- Mom used me as her emotional crutch after they divorced, so I knew things about their relationship that I shouldn't. It didn't paint Dad in a good light (and now that I'm older, I see my mom's flaws, too). I'm not convinced it was intentional PAS, just my mom being selfish and needing someone to vent to.
- Dad and I didn't get along when I was a teenager. Didn't when I was a kid, either. Our personalities were too different, but we've both met in the middle since then.
- I had to share a room with my sister at Dad's and didn't have to at Mom's.
- Dad had a chaotic work schedule (24 hours on/48 hours off plus a second job on his days off) that made consistent visitation hard. Even though he kept my childhood home, it didn't feel like a home because even he wasn't there that frequently.
- My parents divorced when I was a younger teen, so I was already one foot out the door by the time they were sorting out visitation.
- Once I got my license and a job, I was rarely ever home. I worked heavy part time (20-25 hours a week) and took AP classes. When I was home, I was doing homework. On my off time, I was hanging out with friends. I was home to sleep and store my stuff.
- Dad isn't the most emotionally available person. It's hard to connect with him.
I don't hate my dad, and looking back, I was an arse to him when I shouldn't have been. I still went to dinner with him and saw him when we were both off at the same time (which was rare). Mom just had a more stable house and I had my own space, which was important to 16/17 year old me.
Most Parental Alienation is
Most Parental Alienation is done completely unconsciously, like your mom - they use the kid to meet their own needs, not really seeing the impact it has on the child (or caring). I don't believe BM in our situation does it intentionally. Maybe the occasional "punishment" by withholding SS, but most of it has been her own issues coming into play unconsciously.
From my experiences, parental
From my experiences, parental alienation is deployed (whether intentional or not) to:
1. Control the kids, the ex and the entire situation. As you know, this need for control comes from deep insecurities.
2. Be the favored parent. I don't think my skids' bm set out to make her kids hate DH. She just wanted to be "friends" with her kids. I see soooo many parents these days who think becoming friends with their kids is the ultimate goal In the quest for "good" parenting. In contrast, Dad was "mean" because he acted like a parent, not a friend.
3. I think the least common reason is "revenge" for perceived wrongs that happened in the marraige. I believe my mom was so bitter and angry at my dad that she didn't care how her antics made me feel. It wasn't until I was nearly 19 and told her to knock that shit off did she actually understand what she was doing.
Yes, I agree. These type of
Yes, I agree. These type of women are unable to see past their own needs to the harm they are doing their children.
BM here kept telling her attorney she was "terrified of losing SS". She needed to hang onto him and make sure he loved her best. She also needed to lean on him, and like Lt.Dad's mother, elevate him to friend status and tell him things about DH that made SS hate him (mostly untrue or distorted things).
She definitely did some "revenge" withholding, if she was mad at DH for whatever, but the overall issue was her own deeply damaged psyche. Now that SS is 19 and starting to pull away, she is losing it and they are fighting a lot.
I'd like to add a 4th reason:
I'd like to add a 4th reason: entitlement.
My mom didn't want to hurt my dad or us, but she certainly didn't want the world thinking they were equal parents. She felt she did more of the work and therefore should get more of the credit. She had lots of rules and structure, made sure we respected our SF, made us get good grades, etc. However, she wanted to prove she was "better", and it led to her divulging things she didn't need to in order to be self-important. Plus, when she did screw up (and she did big time with my siblings), she felt that she had put in enough time as "the good parent" so she should be absolved from "the bad parenting" and hurt she caused. It's an odd combination of revenge and favoritism.
Entitlement PAS is what I think BM uses/used against the boys. She was the "poor single mom" who made all the sacrifices and had no help and blah blah blah. All BS, or at least a very twisted version of reality. Difference between BM and my mom is that BM did/does it in hopes of alienating the kids, and you can tell because she gets pissed when it doesn't work.
DH and BM’s psychologist
DH and BM’s psychologist shared an interesting perspective on this very topic. He informed them that quite often dads are pushed out of their kids lives and chose not to fight for their rights because they are told that the mom always wins. But when a dad does stay in the picture then 80% of the time the son will want to live with their dad by the time high school comes around while girls chose to live with mom.
i see in my own environment that it becomes a competition and it is annoying as hell. We can all see the ss is growing up and is tired of moving back and forth, so the criticizing of each other’s towns has amped up. Honestly, they both suck and I can’t wait for this kid to be 18, so we can move.
That’s what I was waiting for with DS
XH is very much in the picture and I fully expected DS to lean toward staying with XH much more than he does. It’s slightly more than here but not by much.
And the crabbing about two households? Been there. It gets better once they can drive and are not “imprisoned” at each house.
I rarely saw my dad between
I rarely saw my dad between 15 and 18 because my mom was never home, so I had free reign to do whatever I wanted at her house. Also, when I did actually see my dad, it meant my mom would interrogate me about everything, make me feel guilty if I had fun, and rant and rave about his every flaw. Every friggin time.
I know for a fact that my skids started refusing visitation with their dad for the same damn reasons. My SS now nearly 19 has admitted as much.
I’ve wondered about that
XH and I stay in touch about DS and we also are friendly enough to know what’s going on in the others life and are similar parents so there’s been no need/desire to interrogate (boundaries were set early on and if DS told us things we just told him to talk to the other parent about it).
Early on I got the impression that the skids were interrogated by BM and told to keep mum about stuff at her house. It could have set up a situation where it’s just easier to stay at moms because then we don’t know anything about dad and we don’t have to keep secrets about mom. (Not that either person had a single thing that needed to be a secret.) Now their HS is out there and staying more at moms is well established.
My skids were also told to
My skids were also told to keep "secrets" from their dad, none of which ever made sense because dh didn't care who she allowed in her bed.
My SS realizes now how high conflict his mom can be. It's stressful for a kid to be "responsible" for his mother's emotions and happiness. Some kids open their eyes after being separated from the alienating parent. Others, like my sd17, will probably never realize how her mom sabotaged her relationship with her dad. She will be the next generation of shitty parent/alienator.
In our case it was parental
In our case it was parental alienation, part of which was BM allowing SS to do whatever he pleased at her home. He didn't speak to DH for years.
My SS is now 19 and has a lot of conflict with BM, which is made worse by him trying to become independent and spending time with DH.
There is a lot on this board that is Parental Alienation. A kid who wants one home base at 16, but still speaks to Dad and comes over for holidays, etc, is not alienated, they are just maturing. A kid who leaves one house for the other but still speaks to the other parent and has a good relationship them may be partly alienated, or might just be taking the path of least resistance.
Exh and I have week on week
Exh and I have week on week off... have for years.
They're disinterested in going to their dads because their dad spends a lot if time playing on his computer... doesn't cook many things (limited to about 10different meals)... doesn't help them with homework... doesn't have many rules yet the ones he has, can be IMO over the top.
They prefer an environment where they can use reason and negotiate leeway on rules, have a variety of foods and experiences, and spend time as a family...
I've never talked bad about their dad, we're still very civil.
They think of their dad as more of a buddy than a parent....and o guess they're getting tired of "hanging out"
I do, however, expect to continue the week on week off and that's not negotiable.
BioHo successfully PAS'd (and
BioHo successfully PAS'd (and step-PAS'd) the SDs FOR A TIME. That was when they avoided coming to our home. SD23 is a mini BioHo and only comes for the anticipated Christmas money grab (which she missed out on this past Christmas). SD26 comes to our house more often than she goes to 'Ho's.
The SSs would much rather be at our home than the 'Ho House because (and I quote) "she's f*cking crazy, Dad". Both SSs have said this at different times.
So the only skid 'ditching' is SD23. And she isn't missed.
SD lives with us full-time
SD lives with us full-time with BM being fairly uninvolved aside from summer visitation. BM left when SD was 9 months old and didn't see her again until she was 2 when she started taking summer visitation. Even with this setup, SD, who is now almost 8 years old, would prefer to be with mom. She hasn't outright said it, but I think if someone asked or she was offered, she would jump at the chance. I think it's a matter of honestly prefering to be with their biological mom, no matter how crappy they are. There's a comfort level that no one else in the world can meet.
But I think some of this is
But I think some of this is what my SDs' therapists call "magical thinking", don't you? Why would your SD want to live with a person she barely knows and sees only 10-12 weeks out of the year? There's no way you could convince me that's a "comfort level". That's fantasy land right there.
I think the skids (mine included) love "the idea" of their mothers much more than the experience of their mothers, and they spend years trying to reconcile the difference between what they hope/imagine/want their mom to be like and the actual truth. Of course, I don't know if the BM in your case is often absent but adequate when present or if she's a total dumpster fire like ours and I'm sure that makes a difference.
Ditched and Happy about it
I dont know what will happen with munchkin sd13, but Feral Forger, after she graduated she was already 18, and had signed up for some classes and got her first job. She has never gotten her license, so since she was working a few towns over, and started living somewhere else without discussion, she simply ghosted us. There was no "Im leaving!"
But throughout her teens, she would boomerang between homes, depending on who was making her angry, or who was imposing rules, or how the messy room situation was going. Shes a pig, and enjoys it, loves being in her own filth. However she much preferred our home to her mothers apartment.
We have a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, with 2 living rooms and a nice environment. I have talked with munchkin sd 13 - she feels really calm with us at our house. We all have space to exist separtely if we want. She can watch netflix, while I putter in my room, and DH hangs in his mancave. At her mother's, Toxic Troll's, apparently its a chaotic mess and its a 2 bedrom apartment so she has to stay in her mothers room and store her clothes there. At our place she has her own room and its decorated and nice and clean, with her pet lizards.
Ive told her that when she turns 18 she can decide where she wants to live. But right now there is custody order that we are required to follow. When she tells me that "my mom said I can choose", I refrain from saying what Im thinking ("of course she wants you to choose your fathers place, when its a weekend or she is dating someone, so she can have her time with her dudes...and not have to worry about feeding you and entertaining you!")
Instead I say that "if we dont follow order we could get in trouble" (like say, be held in contempt for trying to take away her babeee by refusing visitation according to schedule!)
DH doesnt believe that she would do that, so I just say, "ok Im keeping track then, so when she decides to attack you AGAIN, you have the facts."
For what its worth - Feral Forger is still asking to move back in with us, to "get her old room back, and for dadee to put her first for once ahead of his stupid wife"...
Because mom let them...
Why do we think kids ditch dads? IF your talking about Ditch ditch, little to no contact, little to no calls to check on parent, little to no return calls IF dad calls kid,, little to no calls to exchange good news / bad news. Little to no desire to spend time with dad, IF they do, it's quickly disintegrates OR implodes.
They don't unless pathogenic parenting is present. I blame the mothers for that awful abuse to their own kid.
IF your talking about ditch "hey dad..Sam is having a pool party and I want to go" ok--ummm, call ya next week ok??Next week comes....a text maybe two HEY DAD do you mind if I dont come over, Sams is having more kids over to his pool, OK, Love you...bye..." That is not really ditching so much as a normal maturing to move away from both parents. Teens really dont want to hang out with mom or dad per'se but they will, then go, come back and go.
IT is normal to move away from our parents....natural order of 'life'. THAT behavior is good and normal. Kids should have their own peer friends. not mom or dad.
Depends on the ditch.
The first one
The true abandoning of one parent/parental household.
Interestingly enough one skid seems to have used his new legal adult status as a reason to avoid our house completely. The other one has valid reasons not to come but has been showing up regularly.
I don't really care. Especially with the older two (my DS is also a legal adult now) since they should start setting their own schedules and be more in control of their lives to get ready for when they do it all alone in a couple months. I'm just curious about what makes a kid abandon one parent and not the other, and typically the dad. And why it doesn't happen for other kids. It's a thing I'm pondering now that it's happening, more as an intellectual curiosity.
PAS is an awful thing!
I do think in most cases, it's PAS by the BM, whether intentional or not. They seek to be the favored parent at all costs, regardless of what it does to the child. I've long thought it was child abuse.