O/T Would you work with no vacation?
I'm not even sure how I feel about this. At my current job, they (like many other employers) have lumped multiple jobs from different departments on to my list of responsibilities. Earlier last month I ended up going to the HR director and politely informing him that I did not have enough time to handle the Human Resources tasks they had me doing since they added yet another more business critical responsibility onto my list (plus they literally had an extra person in HR who could take over my duties) so I at least put an end to that...
But I have no backup. No one. No one else wants to learn my day to day job duties and no one in HR seems to think it's necessary to find SOMEONE as my backup. If I have to call in sick, things will literally have to be cancelled.
I took one vacation earlier this year that lasted two work days (and included the weekend) and it was a strain on the company. My family has come to visit me since then (they live out of state) and I couldn't take any vacation while they were here. I had to get up and work half days or six hours and go home early because work wasn't able to function with me actually gone.
We can't cash out or carry over our vacation from the previous year so if we don't use it, we lose it, and I'm certain I won't be able to schedule any time off by the end of this year.
That being said, I do enjoy my job. I have a good amount of freedom here and the pay isn't bad, but I can't visit family any more and they're all out of state so it requires a couple days off to see folks. I'm really on the fence about this. This isn't even a small company where you could understand there being such limits to what they can do. This is a global company. A big part of me says it's stupid to quit a job you enjoy, that has decent pay, over something like this. Another part of me says that this is bad news, life is too short to do nothing but work and miss out on everthing else.
What would you do?
- WagiMorri's blog
- Log in or register to post comments
Comments
Cross training employees is
Cross training employees is essential in the workforce. It is absurd that if you take a day off things cannot go on. That is just bad business. I would inform them the days of vacation you are given upon being hired are yours to take at reasonable times and insist that you have someone cross trained on your duties so work can still flow if you are out. Never taking any time off will lead to resentment, burnout and eventually poor morale. Nothing good from that, everyone needs a break now and then. I would suggest talking with someone in charge who has the authority to make things happen and implement change in vacation policies.
I'm feeling the burnout for
I'm feeling the burnout for sure.. So are other people around me. The company is overworking every department. Just last night someone else quit because they'd had enough. Moral is pretty awful around here. As much of a downer as I make it sound I do legitimately love my job and I really like my coworkers. Benefits are "okay" and I have my own office. Starting all over is a daunting prospect. I know... At this point I'm just whining.
Have you addressed the issue
Have you addressed the issue directly with hr or your manager that someone needs to be able to cover your absences and if they don't arrange something that you will still be taking your time off and will not be available when things fall apart like last time?
I have. The most progress
I have. The most progress I've made was last month when I spoke to the HR director about the HR person they hired actually handling HR responsibilities instead of me having to do it on top of my job (That is a completely different department in a completely different building).
Any other times I've discussed this with my own manager I get the brush off about how things are tight right now and they'll look into it for the future.
Do you have a union?
Do you have a union?
I might google the employment
I might google the employment law where you live to see what your legal options are regarding paid time off.
Personally, I don't know that I would work a job that allowed for "no vacation" unless the job was seasonal in nature and I knew that I would be off for some period during the year. (like working for a resort that closes down for a month or so in the off season).
I understand that generally employees should take their time off in a way that is not a total inconvenience to their employer (like a CPA during tax season wouldn't take off then). But, not ever taking it and losing it because it can't be carried over or paid out? that is unusual and not right.
Another situation that I might accept temporarily is if the company is in some temporary situation that they are understaffed..but you can see a point in the future where your dedication would be rewarded.
Lastly, if your area is a real desert for good jobs, then, I guess sometimes we have to do what we have to do, but I wouldn't like it and would probably try to move to a different area if possible with more opportunities.
Once you have some info on your local employment laws on this, it would be worth it to have another discussion with your management and then HR if that goes no-where. Tell them you love your job, but you need to be able to take time off with reasonable notice and you need to take more than 2 days at a time occasionally. Make sure you have your list of everything you contribute and why it's worth their while to figure out how to keep you on board (let you take vacation!)
I'm in NYS so I don't think I
I'm in NYS so I don't think I have much pull when it comes to Vacation. What I get is what I get (or don't get in this instance)
If you cannot take vacation
If you cannot take vacation because they don't let you, they HAVE to allow you to carry it over or let you cash it out.
I'm assuming you have the vac denials in writing...... if not, get them in writing from now on.... since the end of the year is coming up, go to them and say I have 12 days of vacation time left - since my previous requests were denied, and I don't wish to lose out on my entitlements because of operational requirements, can we discuss when is the best time to take my remaining 12 days?
I don't see where in New York
I don't see where in New York law they HAVE to allow me to carry it over or cash it out. Frankly put, the company is free to make whatever vacation policies they wish, and I essentially agreed to their rules when I took the job. Of course I didn't think it would come down to me not being able to take any vacation but.. yeah.
Wagi - there's a common thing
Wagi - there's a common thing about laws, world wide....
employment contracts , company policies etc... may not go against the law and may not be worse then the laws...
thus if your law states XYZ, not contract and no policy can state -Xy-Z.... you can sue them and win...
employmnet contracts my differ from laws, only if the employee benefit more
most states are at will
most states are at will employment states, which means even with an employment contract, you can still be fired or can quit at will and without reason.
While the things you mention may be true on Mars, they are not true here in America. So sad, really, but the US is the least employee friendly first world country
I will never ever move there
I will never ever move there then lol.......
it's pretty crazy, when you
it's pretty crazy, when you think about it. There is no requirement that companies even have to offer vacation or paid time off of any kind.
When unions were being formed in this country, their main reason for being was to guarantee a limited 40 hour work week. The benefits unions gave its members are now the backbone of most organizations when it comes to paid time off, an 8 hour day, working conditions, etc.
Many states are still sooo far off the reservation when it comes to how its employees can and are treated by employers. States have broken unions and many are back to taking advantage of workers.
The US is supposed to be the world's leader, but when it comes to workers and families and employment, it lags far behind even some third world countries. It's pathetic, really.
I stopped reading mid way
I stopped reading mid way through your basic employment conditions....
it's worse then a Stephan King horror novel..... I feel like going on strike for each and every working American citizen
https://labor.ny.gov/workerpr
https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/labor_standards.shtm
From FAQ:
Q: How can employees get help to collect Wage Supplements (fringe benefits) that their employer owes them?
A: The Division of Labor Standards investigates and tries to collect claims for unpaid benefits or wage supplements which the employer has agreed to provide. Wage supplements include:
Vacation or holiday pay
Paid sick leave
Reimbursement of expenses
Other similar items
Section 198c of the New York State Labor Law, Benefits or Wage Supplements (opens in a new window)
Notice Requirements for Fringe Benefits and Hours (open in a new window)
Unpaid/Withheld Wages or Wage Supplements/Fringe Benefits Claim Information (open in a new window)
- Submit completed claim to the nearest Division of Labor Standards Office (open in a new window)
https://www.labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/lshmpg...
Fill out the LS 425 to claim unpaid wage supplements if your employer promised you (verbally or in writing) and didn't pay you...
vacation pay
https://www.labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/fringb...
My bad, I understood it as per NYS's labor standards that if they have promised you fringe benefits, they HAVE to allow you to benefit from them. If they DENY your vacation time, they MUST carry them over/cash out. It's not like you just didn't take it.... which would nullify the benefit as per policy, from what you're saying, but rather, it's applicable as a benefit the company owes you because they didn't allow you to take it.... Division of Labor Standards takes care of those claims.
Must have misunderstood.
The US doesn't require any
The US doesn't require any sort of paid leave, and even if you have paid leave, they don't have to allow you to take it or pay you for unused vacation time.
I live in a different state and lost 100+ hours of PTO when I left my previous employer. I didn't get it paid out, and legally they didn't have to. It sucked, but it's the way my state works.
seriously.... making a mental
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: seriously....
making a mental note never to move from |Mars to USA....
Yep. My state doesn't require
Yep.
My state doesn't require employers to give paid breaks or lunch. No paid maternity leave. No payment of vacation or sick days.
The only "guaranteed" leave we have is FMLA, which gives either 6 or 12 weeks of unpaid leave due to a medical emergency, birth, or medical emergency of a family member that requires your care. However, while your job is supposed to be protected and you can't get fired for using FMLA, some companies will "reorganize", "downsize", or start nitpicking policy infractions on the employee using FMLA so that they end up without a job shortly before or after. And it's HARD to prove that the reason you were fired was for taking FMLA.
25 working days per year
25 working days per year annual leave (mon-fri is working day)
12 days per year sick leave (conseq for 3 years allowed) company gives 30 days per year
5 days a year empathy leave (when blood relative dies)
hope you are sitting - 3 months maternity leave fully paid (company gives 4 months)
my work: 15 working days
my work:
15 working days annual leave - and an extra 5 days every 5 years. I currently have 20 days of annual leave.
7 days personal leave/sick leave
1 to 5 bereavement days for death (1 for friend, 3 for extended family, 5 for immediate family)
5 days marriage leave (once during your career)
17 weeks maternity leave (only mom can take - paid at 70% of salary)
35 weeks parental leave (either mom or dad can take, or split between them - paid at 55% of salary plus whatever top up you might get from the organization)
5 years care and nurture leave for a child (can be broken up, but no more than 5 years throughout your career)
5 years elder care (can be broken up, but no more than 5 years throughout your career)
Many other leaves available as well - Family responsibility leave, court leave, union leave, education leave, extended sick leave.... our collective agreement is pretty comprehensive
Stop. I'm getting
Stop. I'm getting depressed.
My company DOES have decent maternity coverage for people in my position, if only I wanted to get pregnant!
Waggi - I have a brilliant
Waggi - I have a brilliant idea..... pretend you are pregnant.... then say you some crazy woman from Mars came on her broom and took the baby after maternity leave }:) }:) }:)
Michigan is getting more
Michigan is getting more friendly in this area, but many states are still draconian, like yours
It's part of the never ending struggle between states rights and federal laws and states usually win that battle.
It is amazing to me that in this day and age, employers are still not required to give paid breaks or paid lunches. Just ridiculous.
And even in federal public service, there is no consistency. At my previous agency, we got one hour for lunch. Everyone is salaried, so it was paid. In my current agency, a different branch of the federal government, we get 30 minutes. Makes no sense, but it is what it is...
It doesn't require it -
It doesn't require it - however if they have policies on it - they must abide by them.
If you're "owed" time, you can involve the department of labor.
Often employers try and convince the employees that conditions aren't met to reeive the payment because of termination or whatever... but that's not the case.
http://webapps.dol.gov/wow/
that's not true here in the
that's not true here in the states. Private companies can handle vacation time pretty much any way they want. They don't have to let you carry over and they don't have to let you cash out.
It sounds like OP took some of her allotted time and now wants to take more. All companies have an operational say over when a vacation can be scheduled. That's why you have to put in for approved time, right?
sounds so familiar - I use to
sounds so familiar - I use to be in this situation and I started reading up on the laws, basic employment conditions, my contract and everything....
was the same principles, leave was never granted and what you did not take year one got cancelled year 2, until I read that if I could proof my leave got rejected by management, they where not allowed to make it zero after year 1..... and I can choose, take the days or pay out... this is the reason I still have 80 days worth of leave...
Management tries to get me to take cash payout, I refuse, 40$ will go to TAX, I want my days off, and like you it's not possible cause there's no one else standing in for me... I really give a shit, now I take long week-ends when ever I want to and 2-3 weeks leave.... they are not allowed to cancel it or deny it without a valid reason, and not knowing how to do my work is not a valid reason ...
so in short get labor legal help and nail them
WagiMorri, would the time get
WagiMorri, would the time get approved for you to leave? Would your job be at risk if you took a vacation?
Honestly, if the time would get approved and you knew you wouldn't get fired, I'd take the vacations. Just like we disengage in step life in order to show how much we are doing and get our partners to pick up the slack, you may have to do the same with your job. They will either discover that they need to cross train since the company can't come to a screeching halt for a week, or you come back to more work that you just make your way through.
If nothing changes after taking your vacation days, and there are equally good jobs out there, I'd start searching for something new. Don't help a company makes millions in profit by giving up your luxuries and rightfully-earned benefits. It's not worth giving up even more so someone else gets a bigger bonus and better benefits.
Your vacation time is part of
Your vacation time is part of your total compensation package. It is taken into consideration and carries weight when the company determines that dollar figure they pay you. When you are provided vacation time and are not using it (regardless of why) you are taking a pay cut.
If they don't allow roll over accrual (my company does not either) start taking the days. The next time your vacation request is denied (get it in writing) get clarification on why. If "now is not a good time" push to get an alternate time considered/scheduled in that same conversation. If alternate requests are also denied your next "rescheduling" should be insistence that you're going to be paid out those days on x pay period. Take your denials to HR and ask that they educate you on how/when you'll be paid out.
Do everything in writing. Even if someone pushes for a verbal conversation, send a follow up summary email confirming your understanding of the conversation is correct.
If all of this fails and you have it documented, report it to the Bureau of Labor. They will address with the appropriate person(s) within HR to investigate and make their determination.
You will be reimbursed to the extent the law allows. BLS will go back as far as one year from the date of complaint.
If you are not comfortable with the BLS route, negotiate a raise to make up for the vacation time you aren't taking - just recognize that route may mean officially removing PTO from your compensation package.
All of that aside, it may be time to renegotiate pay. If you are the gate keeper as far as your day to day business they will not be promoting you any time soon - you are too valuable to them right where you are - which means they are stifling your long term earning ability.
It may not have hit you yet but your situation is the perfect recipe for resentment and burn out. That you're asking shows you're heading in that direction.
Unless your boss can show you their long term plan to cultivate your growth rather than use you as a pack mule you should seriously consider if this is the place for you. You're the only one that can decide what is right for you and what right means. Don't count on a faceless corporation to do it for you.
Thank you, this makes perfect
Thank you, this makes perfect sense.
remember, no matter how much
remember, no matter how much you like or love your job, you are not a slave to it. You can't let them take advantage of you and you have to know your worth.
It really is like disengagement from skids
I know how it goes. I left a
I know how it goes. I left a career employer (decades in) over a rather abrupt disintegration in the organization. Burn out sucks and you'd be surprised how long it takes to truly recover from it. Bleh.
Make sure you are polite and professional in your communications. Review and re-review emails before you send them. You don't want anything to come across as combative or accusatory. No emotion. Don't be afraid to bcc your personal email, either. Or at least forward to yourself afterwards. Retention policies are ever changing and if the day comes where you're fed up enough to walk your brain won't be in the right place to take email inventory anyway.
Don't be shy or nervous when dealing with these types of things. They work for you as much as you work for them. You get to decide if what they offer is worth your time - we spend so much of our lives "at work" and in the US the culture is not in favor of the employees as far as work/life balance - make it work for you.
To answer your question. NO I
To answer your question.
NO I would not work for a company like this now that I know better.
The best time to find a new job is when you have one.
Start looking for another one.
I worked for someone like this years and years ago. I was young and scared. As were most of the employees.
Something to you feels wrong and 'off' that is why you asked us. IT IS WRONG and let them find someone else to work to death.
'Pack mule'. All of what the
'Pack mule'. All of what the comment above pointed out. You will not be promoted as you are too essential as a drone worker bee. You will never get your PTO unless you fight for it and take it.
My DH is a branch office manager who was until recently in your situation. I stopped planning any time away because he would always be interrupted or obsessed with keeping up with what was going on in the office. He did many daily tasks that should have been done by those under his supervision. Finally he transferred to another branch office and the difference is night and day. There are actually people in that office who do their jobs with accuracy and minimal supervision. There may be hope for a vacation now! As it stands when a manager is out of the office another branch manager is to cover any emergency. In his old office everything was an emergency...they did not know how to do the daily operations.
I always joked that I would book a vacation without cell phone or Internet service in the boonies! It was not really a joke.
So next time you schedule a day off...do not answer the phone! Next time you are sick...do not answer the phone. Force them to deal with it. Document everything if they have denied you the time off. Make a case and present it to someone higher up the food chain if necessary.
Visit your family for Gods sake! Anything could happen and someone you love could be gone!
Are you working to live or living to work? Make it work for YOU!
If nothing else will work then be proactive and find someone else in the company who will agree to cross train with you. You can cover them...they cover you...only on the essential things. Everything else can wait and pile up...you will get to it when you get to it. If everyday is about putting out fires...then the Forrest will just never get replanted.
Take your damnned time off! Even if you have to do it in two hour increments ( long lunch with your visiting family), regular spa visits, gym workout time, rendezvous with your DH, or half days or heck....just bite the bullet and take two weeks off for that family trip that has no communication services in the wilderness camp. Aka five star tropical resort! Post the photos when you get back! Leave the phone at home!
If you are feeling especially kind..put together an operations manual and hand it to your manager as you leave for vacation.
Do not be a pack mule! They end up in the slaughterhouse when they break down. Sad but true! Do not end up in the slaughterhouse!
There will be push back...show no fear....calm and assertive. Let us know how it goes and where you are taking your first real vacation!
I am always amazed at how
I am always amazed at how companies make employees feel like they can't take their earned time...
I always take ALL of my vacation time. I work hard for it and I earned it.
Wagi - put in a request, and if they tell you it's not operationally feasible, then ask for an alternate date. Then, TAKE IT and don't answer the phone, just like LostInSpace says. It's YOUR time to do what YOU want
While you are on that day off, update your resume and start looking for a new job, sister.
KNOW YOUR WORTH and find a company that will know it, too!!
So true... They are NEVER
So true... They are NEVER going to see the hard work everyone does and actually appreciate it. All they do is see people sacrificing their personal lives to make it work and think to themselves "See? They're making it work. Everything is fine."
My daughter in law is going
My daughter in law is going through the same thing with her job. I am going to show her your blog. I found it to be very helpful.
I think the advice you
I think the advice you received to document your requests for vacation time are good. Realistically, if you probably won't want to sue your current employer while you are working there, but if things come to a real breaking point, you should have the ammo to show they 1. had an official vacation policy and you were allocated X days and asked 20 times to take days and were denied. It wouldn't be fair to wait until December and request your full compliment then perhaps... but if you are spreading out reasonably through the year and mindful of busy times then there is no reason that they shouldn't be granting it since it is part of your employment contract. Now, if they change their policy and state that there is no longer any VACATION allocation and that people can take as much time as they want "with management approval".. then you are kind of screwed. Some companies have gone to this model and possibly as a way to fight these claims.
My company has a use it or lose it policy and only in the most extreme cases are people allowed to carry over time beyond a prescribed one week. We are given ample notice through the year that we need to plan our time off.
I would try to go back to your management and tell them, I know you say we are in a tough spot, but when do you anticipate me being able to use my vacation if I can't use it this month.. or next month? Agreeing to suck it up for a short time or crunch period is one thing. An ongoing taking advantage of you is not right.
To what extent is vacation
To what extent is vacation time seen as a gift from the employer vs an employee right?
Is it an idea to submit a request for the days that you want, and go from there? If it gets turned down, just keep asking. You're an employee taking on management concerns when you try to do more than your own job, including not taking your earned (and much-needed) vacation!
PS Wagi, when you take leave
PS Wagi, when you take leave DO NOT ANSWER YOUR PHONE if work calls.
Or read company emails....
Leave out going message 'I will be unavailable from x TO x. Please call BooBooLA'foo at x123 for assistance. Do NOT leave a message for me as I will not be checking voicemail.
There is nothing worse then spending your first day or two back from work returning calls from lazy people who didn't ask someone else for help.
If you can get away with it,....don't leave a voice message at all.
Thank you all for your
Thank you all for your responses. This is really helping me get back on track and not be so bitter or filled with anxiety about it. I've been stuck in a place of being afraid of any kind of confrontation whether it's simply being told I can't take days off or have to reschedule something. I enjoy this job and I've wondered if I were to leave it if I could find anything else that compares.
I've been full of denial over this issue and now instead of allowing the company to worm around actually denying me days off, I need to make them do it and get it in writing. If this isn't going to stop, I have to find another job elsewhere and hope that it's better than here.
The fact that you are paid
The fact that you are paid well, like your job and like your coworkers is definitely a plus for this job. If you can just be a bit more assertive in nailing down time for yourself... because.. YOU NEED IT!, I don't think it's time to job search just yet.
So, document and be a squeaky wheel on this. You got results when you went to HR before. So, now, document your requests for time off and document their denial. If they suggest half days, state, that doesn't work for you, it's either the whole day, or you will pick another day that works for them. Then, after 3 or 4 denials of "reasonable requests" go to HR and state that you are trying to work with the company policy but that you have not been successful and what do they suggest so that the company is in compliance with it's policy.
I think you have gotten some
I think you have gotten some great advice in regards to your company.
So I won't add to that part.
The part I will say is NO....I would not work for a company that did not allow me to take vacations. You NEED them to have a fuller, happier life. You are not going to go to your grave saying "I wish I worked more" you instead are going to say " I wish I saw friends and family more, I wish I saw more of the world, I wish I did a road trip, I wish I checked off more items from my bucket list "
So girl.....get your vacation time and get out in the world!!! Go have a blast!!!!