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For Richer or Poorer??

TwoOfUs's picture

Hey. 

So...I've noticed an interesting trend on this site recently...which is to tell the wives/stepmoms who post here that if their husband can afford to 'finance' or 'spoil' etc. his adult children while still meeting his obligations to the household...then she should really butt out. It's none of her business. 

I'm genuinely wondering where this particular attitude comes from? Why shouldn't the wife have a say about finances in this area? I mean...no one should be super controlling toward their spouse about money or anything else...but that's not what I'm seeing in these posts. I'm seeing women who are watching thousands of dollars go out the doors of their household...in order to support lazy lifestyles and excesses for a grown child's household. Why shouldn't that make them upset? 

Is it because second marriages are somehow less than first marriages? I've literally seen posters tell these wives: "He's a grown-ass man and you shouldn't care what he spends his money on as long as he covers his part of the expenses!" As if spending money is some amoral thing that has no effect whatsoever on your spouse:

"Well. I know he spent $4000 on hookers and blow this month...but hey. He had it and it's HIS money...why should you get a say?" 

How is that statement any different from chastising women for wanting to have a say over other toxic, dysfunctional, and damaging money habits when it comes to grown children?

We don't treat the resource of time this way: "He's a grown-ass man and he can decide how to spend his own time!!! So what if he's not giving enough of it to you??!! He's meeting the bare minimum time commitment for being a spouse by eating breakfast with you every morning, so how dare you have anything to say about how HE spends HIS extra time??!! How dare you get your feelings hurt or ask for anything more??!!" 

So why do we treat a life partner this way when she has concerns about how her partner spends money? When we get married, don't we promise ourselves to our spouses "for richer or for poorer" at some point in the vows? Do we not really mean the "richer" part of that equation when it comes to second marriages? Like...we expect these women to stick around and help out in the "for poorer" phase...but when the DH has some success...it should all go to his kids? She doesn't get to enjoy the "for richer" as much as the first family does...the bare minimum (bill paying) is fine for her? 

I don't know. This has really been bothering me today...would love your thoughts. 

Comments

tog redux's picture

 I see it more as if the man has an expensive hobby and as long as the bills are covered, he can spend on his hobby. The wife might think his hobby is stupid, but if it's his spending money, why should she stop him from spending it?

I don't have a say over what my DH spends his money on, nor does he with mine. I don't think it's fair for one person to decide how money should be spent, in either direction.  If he has the money to spend on his kids, why should the wife be able to say no to that, if it doesn't affect the household, just because she thinks it's wrong?

Now, if it affects them being able to pay their bills, save for retirement etc, then I think she has a right to be upset.

TwoOfUs's picture

But of course it affects the household. Spending money on adult kids = less money for the household. 

And it's not a hobby or an enriching activity. It's subsidizing poor behavior and dysfunctional relationships...at the expense of greater financial security for your own household. 

In my situation, for instance...I'd be really, really annoyed if my DH started making money after years of struggling...and then gave it to his kids and expected me to "butt out" about his financial decisions after I was in the trenches with him for 10 years. Sorry. That's not how it works. You can't let me take on all the struggle and give a bunch of kids who never lifted a finger the cream of the crop...

Yet that's what we see on here all the time. 

tog redux's picture

But that's how YOU feel, that's it's enabling and subsidizing poor behavior. Why would your feelings be the one that prevails, if he doesn't feel that way?

What my DH spends his money on does NOT affect my household, because we make sure everything is covered, and the money he spends is extra money to do what he wants with. He doesn't spend it on his kid, but if he did, I would not have a say in that.

In your example it DOES affect the household. In mine, it does not.  I don't see anyone saying it's fine for their husband to give away bill money to the kids.

TwoOfUs's picture

My feelings would be the ones to prevail because I'm the one arguing for keeping the money that WE earn in OUR household. That's how partnerships work. Even if it's one spouse who technically "earns" more of the money...the other spouse also brings assets to the table and uses time and other resources to maintain and enrich the home the two share. That's why it's a partnership. Now...one partner is saying: "Yes. I'll take all that love and support from you...thank you very much! But I want to do the bare minimum financially for our joint venture while giving my excess to a different venture. Why are your feelings hurt by this??!!" 

On what planet is that fair? Why should second wives accept the "for poorer' but be allowed no part in the "for richer" without someone calling them materialistic and gold-digging. We accept the risk of the partnership...but we don't get the reward? 

At any rate...It's impossible to give away money to another household without affecting your own household...and I would argue that there's no such thing as "bill money" vs other money. There are always investments that can be made...ways you can make your household more secure. 

What I often see on here is women saying the amount their DH is sending to adult kids bothers them...and then everyone commenting: "Well. Does he pay his bills??!!! If so...the rest is none of your business!!" 

I completely disagree with that statement. Life isn't all about paying bills...and why should you marry someone who puts the luxuries and comforts of his adult children over your own? Why should we settle for the bare minimum financially? It makes no sense. 

 

tog redux's picture

So, if your DH had an expensive hobby that you thought was stupid, and he spent money on that, would that upset you? Or is it just the fact that he's spending it on his kids and BM might be getting some of it?  How is it "impossible" to not affect your own household, if that money isn't needed in your household?

No one is saying to put the luxuries of his kids above his wife. They are saying that a wife doesn't get to control how he spends his money just because she married him.

TwoOfUs's picture

My DH does have an expensive hobby that I think is stupid (his "business") and yes...it does upset me and we do talk about it. He doesn't spend much on the adult skids and rarely sends them money. 

It's impossible for it to not affect your household based on the very simple principles of math. More money going out = less money for things for your household...whether those things are "needed" or not. You can choose to give away your money...and I typically do. I'm actually more generous with money than my DH is...to my family and to his kids. 

_______

"No one is saying to put the luxuries of his kids above his wife. They are saying that a wife doesn't get to control how he spends his money just because she married him."

Yes...many people actually ARE advocating for luxuries for skids over the needs of the SM's household (I would consider paying exorbitant rent during college for a kid who won't live with roommates a luxury, for example). My main problem is with the attitude I see. It's wrong to expect a SM to work for things for her household but not expect skids to work for those same things...and it will naturally lead to the wife feeling like she's second-class and subsidizing the skids lazy lifestyle...whether the household can "afford" to do so or not. 

I'm just saying I don't think we should rake women over the coals for expecting communication and equal decision-making power over money matters in their own homes...that's a natural and right desire to have. No one's talking about controlling everything their DH does with household finances...but sending large checks out the door? That warrants a discussion and, maybe, compromise..."just because" she is married to him (aka "just because" she entered into a legally-binding, lifetime partnership agreement...yes, just because of that little old thing...she does get a say.) 

tog redux's picture

We will have to agree to disagree. I think it depends on the severity, the money spent, the needs of the household, and not just on - we are married so I get to decide.  I don't see my wedding ring as a signal I get to control everything he spends on.  Obviously you feel differently.

 

Cover1W's picture

Interesting question - I don't want to monitor DH's spending.  He is a grown man.  However, he does run larger purchases by me and I him.  If he decides to do something "big" only for himself, that may cause me to have more work or less time (such as going on a boys vacation and I'm home taking care of things and SD12 - which is ok if I confirm it's ok) then he needs to compensate me somehow, like paying for extra groceries or an extra housecleaning.  But this is a rare occurance.

My ex-H was terrible about this.  We also had split expenses but he was somehow (nefariously I suspect) rolling in cash and buying things left and right for himself, going off on weekends away with his buddies without me (last minute trips I couldn't take because of work), and then he'd get mad if I went and bought myself a nice necklace or pretty wine glasses.  And he refused to discuss it. 

I think also people tend not to talk about finanances.  DH has had to learn this from me, I will not ignore ignorance and finances.  Balance your books at least monthly, know what your needed basic expenses are, do not over-draw (if you know your income/output you shouldn't), meet your financial requirements and then play a little after putting $ away (at least a good meal out once a month) and TALK about upcoming wants then great!

TwoOfUs's picture

Yes. This is how DH and I are, too. We discuss money at least monthly. I've been carrying the majority of the expenses for years...but it looks like DH will be getting a good position with my company actually making more than me. Ironically, this has made me a little nervous about money...because I'm worried that now that he has it he may overspend (he has this tendency) or give it to his adult kids (he talks a big game about them needing to learn to fend for themselves now...but it's never been put to the test of him actually having excess funds!)  

I just realized that were I to come here with this anxiety...a good portion of the posters here might tell me that as long as he's paying exactly half!! of our current household expenses...then I don't get a say about what he does with the extra after that. But I know that if he starts spoiling and treating his kids rather than reinvesting in us and our home, it will hurt my feelings. And doesn't that viewpoint completely ignore the 10+ years I've invested in this relationship? Everything I've done for him, us, and our home in that time period? And the 30+ more I intend to invest? 

In other words...doesn't that viewpoint completely ignore the fact that we are married...joined together in a legal partnership...and have made certain vows to each other?

tog redux's picture

Then the "reinvesting in your home and us" should be part of the monthly discussion. There are monthly bills and then there are extra bills for home repair etc.

Cover1W's picture

Exactly - we discuss what our wants our for our house improvements and trips and dinners out, etc.  I got a big want this winter (it was turning into a need) and he got a big want for the house with flooring improvements.  We plan and discuss it.  If he wants to pay for something for SDs that's over and above the usual, then we discuss it, even if he's paying for it.  I cannot stop him but he knows that if it changes his bottom line or retirement/bill paying then it's a problem for both of us.  Communication.

tog redux's picture

Right, so if we decide we are repaving the driveway, he agrees, and then he turns around and gives $2000 to the skid and now we can't repave the driveway, yes - then I would be mad.

Healyourslf's picture

"It's subsidizing poor behavior and dysfunctional relationships...at the expense of greater financial security for your own household."

THAT right there is my bone of contention. It's not about "controlling" DH's expenditures...it's about the partnership coming before the entitled money grubbers. I've helped DH through bankruptcy created by a poorly settled divorce. He knows that SD is a manipulative money piranha like BM so he appreciates my input on fiduciary decisions and forward-planning.  We're retiring in a few years and it is our MUTUAL GOAL to enjoy the years to come.  

We do run everything by each other or at least make the other aware when it comes to minor expenses - hobbies, etc.  We always discuss nominal expenditures and make decisions together.  That's what you do in a partnership.  I am never afraid to say what I need to because it is evident to DH that I have financially managed my life quite well...he appreciates the input because it is not about control.  Rather, it's about "creating" what we both want.

 

 

twoviewpoints's picture

Opening with some form of this reply comment would have more or less cut right to the chase, so to say.

It zeros in to exactly the why and how you feel the way you do. It sounds as if your DH has about ten years of catch-up to do before he starts throwing all his new income around anywhere other than his household (he and you). You've been pulling the majority of the weight for ten years of leaner times and now that he is about to bring something to the table you feel (rightly so) that you should have some say on priorities on what the new boost in household income should go towards.

Yours is not a case of a man coming into the marriage with a nice sized pre-marriage comfy nest egg to do as he pleases with that really has nothing to do with you nor in your assistance in acquiring. Neither has the financial situation been equal since the marriage. 

I do understand your fears and thoughts on this in your circumstance. However, I do not agree that every other 'case' brought to steptalk fits into your scenario. I do think there are many 'cases' brought here (to ST) that are nothing similar to what you present in your situation. Thus the reason some are indeed given the old 'it's his money' routine. 

tog redux's picture

Exactly. I don't get to tell a grown man what he can spend his extra money on, provided it doesn't affect my quality of life, or the financial agreements that we have.

 

Letti.R's picture

I think part of it is because second or third marriages tend to be  more unbalanced than couples starting out in their 20s.

People come into it with different financial burdens.
Some come in with 2 or 3 kids, where there partner has none; some come in with huge debt and their partner has assets; in some marriages all of sudden existing relationships need to change because second wife or husband want to re-write history by excluding former kids, in some  an "ours" kid grows up with less or more than their siblings based on the financial position of the couple and someone with other kids wants to create some equity, etc.
There are too many variables in subsequent marriages to make blanket statements around how couples manage their money.

Here on ST, often there is an unfairness in the way some people are treated by the person who holds the purse strings, in others you have the "poorer" person making unnecessary demands on the greater income earner in order to finance a lifestyle they are not entitled too.

To me, too little discussion goes into finances with most couples.
Not just here, it is everywhere.
People are not honest about their financials, or some people live in a fantasy land where they think there spouse will change how irresponsible they are through the mere act of marriage.
Added to that, life is so damn hard and money can be tight - it burns some people when money is spent for stupid purposes to the detriment of the household.
I have seen some monumentally stupid clangers here where people make absurd financial decisions.
Sometimes the spouse is not even consulted on those massive financial decisions.
Plus, people spend, spend,spend  because they won't ever get old and need to retire.
There is too little financial literacy in general.

To me, it is important that couples agree on how they want to split their joint expenses.
In a way that is fair in terms of their incomes and how much they load the household with expenses.
What works for me in the same situation, may not be agreeable to you, but the onus is on the couple to agree on what works for them.
It doesn't matter if the incomes equal or very lopsided, couples need to work out what works for them.
If and when the basics are paid for and taken care of, then the couple can agree on how they wish to spend, or divide the extra disposable income if they have it.
Part of the problem here is that some people don't even take care of the basics -  or cannot.
Financial stress is a real worry...

All that said, I do not agree that being married  to someone "for richer" or "poorer" gives them automatic right, say or access to the money or lack there of, of their spouse.
It is something that can be negotiated between the couple - and I see nothing wrong with a spouse refusing to contribute more than their fair share of joint expenses or agreed upon expenses or costs..
Especially when it comes to women.
Women want equality, they want to be treated as equals, which means they pay their fair share of equal share of bills.
They are also equally entitled to control of their own money.
Chivalry is only alive when it is predominantly the higher income earner who need to cough up and pay.
This doesn't wash with me.

tog redux's picture

Right - these men do also have commitments to their children, and just because their new wife doesn't think the man should spend anything more on those kids than the new wife agrees to (or the law requires), that doesn't mean the man feels that way.  For Richer or for Poorer just means, I won't leave you when you lose your job - not I get to decide how your money is spent.

 

Letti.R's picture

To me, "for richer or poorer" means ante-nuptial contract.
Legally, you have no right to my money...
As you say tog and with which I agree:  it means we go through the hard times together and enjoy the luxury times together as well.
To me, it does not mean you have a say in my wallet.

It is not about money, it is about attitudes towards money.
When you marry someone, there needs to be financial compatibility.
It is not something you and I need to agree on, however, you better have a similar attitude to your spouse.
 

TwoOfUs's picture

Actually...you're wrong. Legally spouses do have rights to each others' money because they're in a legal partnership...that's part of the deal...unless they specifically decide otherwise and make other plans. For example, I can't legally make anyone other than my DH the primary beneficiary on my retirement accounts...unless he signs off on it. He has that right now...because we're married. Spouses also share in each others' debt or fortune. That's literally how it works. 

To me...watching my spouse send thousands of dollars to fully grown children would not be indicative of enjoying the luxury times together. Just the opposite. So I'd feel like I'd gone through the hard times but wasn't getting to partake in the good. 

Letti.R's picture

Depends on how you are married.
With an iron clad ante-nuptial contract you get nothing and are entitled to nothing.

I am not saying it is fair, but legally you are entitled to what is contractually agreed upon before marriage.
And if it is nothing, it is nothing.
Speak to a lawyer who will tell you the same - for a fee.

I am not saying that in principle, money shouldn't be shared in a marriage.
It only works when your principles are the same.

In your instance, I would agree that your spouse is being unfair towards you.
If I were you, it would seem like financial abuse and control to me.
I would also think him an idiot to waste money on his children,  literally at my expense.
But, I didn't marry him.
I would not marry someone like hime.
I also would not marry anyone without clearly setting out the terms of our financial arrangements, but that is just me.

So where I can agree with how you see things in your marriage, I do not agree with your overall philosphy on how money is managed in a marriage.
That is ok too because WE are not getting married.
(Unless you want to give bigamy a try! But it will still come with an ante-nuptial contract where you get nothing.)
Smile

TwoOfUs's picture

Well you haven't read the comments I guess because as I have mentioned many times, my DH doesn't send money to his adult kids and we talk openly about money all the time...including in a specific once-a-month meeting. 

My point was about other posters who write blogs about their DHs supporting adult skids...and then they get told it's none of their business. I disagree with that...and would also venture to guess that the majority of these women don't have pre-nups.

I do know what a pre-nup is. I also know that less than 5% of marriages in the US are done under a prenuptial agreement...and the majority of those are antenuptial agreements with accrual, meaning that assets earned or accrued within the marriage are still considered community property.

So I'm not sure how your comment applies here. I'm talking about how assets and property are handled in the majority of marriages...not the 0.0000001% of marriages under antenuptial agreements without accrual that would make your statement true. 

tog redux's picture

It's different, depending on where you live.  In some areas, if you did without a will, your kids are actually entitled to more money than your spouse - spouse can't be cut out entirely, but they only get a third.

TwoOfUs's picture

Right...I understand what the phrase means and I'm not advocating for deciding how all the money is spent. I am advocating for communication...and for reasonableness on this site when women feel frustrated by their husbands putting the needs and whims of their adult children over the needs of their own household. Most women I know who are stepmoms thoroughly understand that their DH has prior obligations and have signed on for that...CS, kid expenses, etc. Most women actually subsidize this in some way. 

It doesn't mean that they signed on to support skids into their 30's or that they shouldn't have a say if that starts to happen. I guess what I'm saying is it seems that what we're asking women to say when they say "for richer or for poorer" is not only "I won't leave you when you lose your job" but also "and I'm totally fine with being put second to your grown children when you're doing well financially, too!" 

That's what I mean. Why do we expect them to take the "for poorer" part of the relationship but call them needy, whiny, manipulative, and gold-digging when they want to equally participate in the "for richer" half of that equation, too. 

Letti.R's picture

This could mean for richer or poorer in my book.
However, it sure as hell does NOT mean, to "love, cherish and honour"!
This is crappy behaviour that you outlined and to me breaks a different vow in my book.

And, yes, there are Disney Dads on this site who make bad financial decisions relating to adult stepkids and toddlers.
Again it is not about the money, it is the poor decision making. lack of boundaries, disrespect for their spouse....
The money is the symptom, not the problem.

Monkeysee's picture

Exactly!! If money is constantly flying out the door to support/aid/fund *adult* children, it’s a symptom of a much larger problem. It doesn’t matter how much money one may have, funding adult “children” in a dysfunctional way can only ever lead to further dysfunction, which WILL bleed it’s way into the marriage. 

Helping is one thing. Enabling is another. It’s not just about the money.

lieutenant_dad's picture

I advocate for people being able to spend their disposable income how they see fit. However, I view "disposable" after all the essential and shared expenses are covered. This includes things like retirement, savings for trips/big ticket items/emergency fund, date nights, gifts for upcoming events, planning for baby, etc. Not just bills - the WHOLE financial enchilada.

If, after ALL of that, you still have money to spend, then spend it as you so choose. If I want a boob job and I have met all my individual and familial financial obligations, I don't want someone telling me I can't spend my unobligated money on a want.

I know I don't explain this well. When I tell someone not to worry about whete extra money is being spent, I really do mean the extra after everything. Couples should most certainly discuss finances, and they should most certainly set financial goals. The real problem is probably that people don't talk about money enough and have really mismatched goals that never get effectively communicated.

Ultimately, even as couples, we are all individuals and should still have some freedom as an individual. I think people see money leave their house and think "oh, that COULD have been spent elsewhere". Well, yeah. That's every resource. But being a couple doesn't mean that you get to monopolize EVERY resource of your partner. You don't get to take up all their time, so why would you get to dictate all of their money? Some of it HAS to come with personal freedom, even if it's just a carton of cigarettes a week. Even as a couple, you'll still have individual wants and needs that should be met, and there should be some resources set aside for that.

Every person deserves their own resources set aside for them to be selfish with. Those resources - those precious, unallocated resources - are yours to do with as you please, and just as no one should tell you want to do with them, you shouldn't be able to tell others what to do with theirs.

Letti.R's picture

Marry me...
We are financially compatible.
Who needs romance??
(In other words, SNAP!.)

 

tog redux's picture

Yes, I consider the joint stuff to mean everything that's important to them as a couple - retirement, bills, house repairs, vacations, etc.

thinkthrice's picture

after the years and years and years of impoverishment of Chef due to him being stupid about his divorce and his guilty daddy spending; the years I sacrificed for the sake of the skids so that his account wouldn't overdraw (for a while I stopped getting manicures etc.  to this day I still cut and colour my own hair)  I figure I have it coming.  My income pays all of the household bills.  What he makes at his business is now covering my gym membership fee, perfume, cat products for the pets, you name it. 

The Girhippo bled him dry and is still doing so after 15 years of being with me.  I'm going to get something out of it!  I remember the day he moved in with me and said out loud the other day "a day that will live in infamy."  Frankly I don't care because of all the HELL he put me through being disney dad and treating ME like the enemy for so.many.years.  /rant off.

Alien's picture

I see where all of this is coming from. I don’t think the second wife needs to go as a secondary priority to first marriage children In fact I had to work on my feelings to accept that there’s some resource will be going out of my household. And I know who I was marrying. I know for 100% my husband won’t spend rediculous amounts of money for his children, I know he is not going to be a Disney dad. I know I can trust him to spend HIS money the way he sees fit. People don’t start being reckless with money out of the sudden. I was the one who actually used “grown-ass man” term the other post lol and my point is it’s not a problem it’s just who the person is. If you don’t feel and don’t see that your partner puts you first don’t marry him he won’t probably change. So yes the wife is always a priority and I don’t need to be up my husbands ass to make sure he will put money away for our retirement or spend his free time with me. He chooses to and I was looking for that in a person to marry. I made sure I looked at all the aspects before giving that vow.

And of course you always have an opinion of how your husband spends money. And if he “spends $4000 on hookers” it doesn’t matter if it’s his money what matters is your husband is a pig so why stay with such person? I think it’s silly to try to change someone. If you see that he doesn’t care about you or your children and just supports his old family why stay? Why try to convince him you matter more? He makes his choices everyday and if they are not in your favor...what are we even talking about.

TwoOfUs's picture

lol. 

To be fair...a lot of people have used the phrase "grown ass man" when talking about this issue over the years. I've been a member for quite a while. 

And I'm not talking about me. I'm the higher earner and don't have this problem with my DH/adult skids. 

My main concern is the attitude of many commentors...that the second wife has less of a say about finances than a woman would be expected to have in a first marriage. I see no reason for that. 

As I said in my original post...money is not some amoral thing...the way we spend and invest it has value and emotional connotations. I think, on this forum, we tend to repeat the mantra: "His money, his decision!!!!" even in really bizarre situations...without really thinking it through or seeing where the SM is coming from. It's not wrong (in fact it's right) to expect regular communication about finances, mutually-beneficial decision-making, compromise, and support in your marriage. Those needs don't change because it's a second marriage...yet we act like second wives don't have a right to expect these things. Especially when it comes to $$$$

But I think they do. 

tog redux's picture

I don't think the first wife gets to say how the man spends his money either. 

 

TwoOfUs's picture

No one ever said "gets to say" 

I've always said "gets A say" 

Huge difference. One implies control...the other, communication. I'm annoyed by commentors who tell posters to "butt out" or have no say in household finances. 

tog redux's picture

I think they get the SAME "say".  The first wife can't tell him he shouldn't spend on his dog that he brought into the marriage, anymore than the second wife can tell him he shouldn't spend on his kids that he brought into the marriage.

There's no difference in how much "say" one wife gets.  I don't understand that point.

STaround's picture

Gets some money to do with as we please.  My DH may think I look gorgeous and sees no need for professional hair coloring or mani and pedis.   But guess what, we each are allocated some money to spend.  I do think that total honesty and transparency is important, along with saving for retirement.  But as long as both do that, there is room for individual choices.  If my DH wants to restore old cars, even if he makes not much money on it, that is OK.  None of these choices, or paying for college, is like spending on drugs or hookers. 

TwoOfUs's picture

No of course not. 

But I would say that fully funding failure-to-launch kids in their 20s and 30s is as destructive to both the kids themselves and the marriage as drugs and promiscuity. 

STaround's picture

And I would say, to my DH, my opinion, as long as I am holding up my share of the household, which I am, is what matters.  Many kids do not finish college till they are in their 20s, and if I want to fully fund my DD not only till she gets her BS/RN, but her NP, it is my call.   But I told him this when we got engaged, that I had and would continue to save for her.  Different people may define failure to launch differently.  Some may regard it is as fatal if a kid takes a year off, then wants to go back.   Some do not.  

queensway's picture

Wow TwoOfUs this is a good thread. Brought out a lot of opinions and viewpoints. All I have to add is you got it right!

Harry's picture

of that many households where money going out does not effect the hold household.  You can play mind games but five thousand going out means something in your household doesn’t not get done.  Stepparents came to understand that certain money’s have to go out each month.  But we did not sign up for all the exters 

tog redux's picture

Depends on how much money you make, how you spend it, and what your financial goals are. With a sizable income, you can easily have 5K to spare.