Is 12yo SD a master manipulator... or innocent child?
This is my first blog post EVER, but rather than commiting myself to a mental institution, I need help from someone in a similar situation!
I have been with my husband for 3 years and his situation with his ex-wife is pretty outrageous and has caused quite a bit of tension in our marriage. He won custody of his daughter when she was 4 years old, due to her mother cutting another woman's face with a beer bottle. This woman is well known around town for her violent streak, sleeping around on her current husband, and heavy partying (particularly cocaine.) She has 2 other kids who are troubled as hell. Her son, 15, was expelled from school last year, and her daughter, 8, has been in 1st grade for 2 years, throws massive tantrums in public, and still pees her pants. Just to give you a general idea of her lack of mothering skills. Between her and my husband there is zero co-parenting. My SD literally lives a double life. One set of rules here, another set at her mother's house. Whatever happens over there is a complete mystery.
Anywho, when I met my husband SD had just turned 9. She was sweet and happy most of the time. However, I noticed right away that she was defiant and abusive to her father. He asked me for help with discipline. At the time, I figured helping was a good thing, considering she didnt have a positive female role model. I started a rewards jar and things went really well for the first year. She stopped the kicking and punching and became less hostile. I worked with her on her homework every day after school, and before ya know it she was a straight A student. Year 2 rolls around and her mother goes off the deep end. She was fired from her job after she overserved her "lover" (not her husband) past legal hours and he died leaving the bar in a car accident. SD was coming home after her 2 days a week with mom crying about how she didn't want to be there anymore, her mom never came home, her mom is mean to her, hits her, etc. My husband reported her to CYS for neglect after she said that her brother hit her head in the shovel and her mom laughed at her. That year she didnt show up to a single softball game, school play, parent teacher conference... nada. I did everything for her that a mother should do. A couple times SD said "I wish you were my mom." To which I would reply "don't say that, she will come around." Well... becareful what you wish for.
Year 3 and the ex-wife decided she wanted to finally spend time with her now 12 year old daughter. It was like a light switch- this little girl that used to love me now absolutely HATED me. She began lying about absolutely anything and everything. Won't brush her teeth, hair, or shower for days on end. Wears the same clothes and smells like a used tampon. Gets picked on in school. Stops playing softball and starts hanging out with the trashy kids, for lack of a better word. Her mother got her a cell phone and a day later she had every social media platform known to man and is glued to the thing all day every day. Refuses to do her chores and basically has become the epitome of a lazy brat. This shift caused quite a bit of resentment for me, and as a result I disengaged. I will make comments like "nice of you to join the world today" when she wakes up at noon, or give her a dirty look when shes being particularly defiant to her dad. I suppose you could chalk it up to typical 12 year old behavior... but for me the lying is not normal and shouldn't go unnoticed. We spent years giving her all the tools to be successful and independent, but as soon as her mother shows her some attention its like the slate was wiped clean and we are literally chopped liver. My husband will believe anything she says. Its caused a major rift in our marriage. Even when I prove she is lying to his face he says "all kids lie." Or "she will grow out of it."
So.. here we are. I cannot even stand the sight of her. I cannot stand to hear her voice. I feel hurt, betrayed, but mostly disgusted. A couple weeks ago my husband gets a text from her mother that says she wants to go live with her because "your wife is HORRIBLE." She went on to say how I am so mean and awful and that she wants to move out and not see me anymore. DH brings it up with SD when he picks her up and she says "I never said that." Its pretty obvious she is playing both sides, looking for sympathy and attention and to get the best of both worlds. Since then I have not spoken to her, and she won't speak to me, or even look at me. I am finding it to be the most difficult thing I have ever done to even be in the same house as her. The logical part of my brain says I am being irrational, but I can't overcome it. I hate her.
Which brings me to my question...
Can a 12 year old be a master manipulator? Or does their lack of experience and rational thought automatically make them innocent? Am I being evil?
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Yes, of course 12-year-olds
Yes, of course 12-year-olds can manipulate. Dogs can manipulate. Mine do it quite well!
Has your DH considered getting SD a therapist? She sounds depressed to me - and dealing with a loyalty bind put on her by her dysfunctional mother.
Yes, when she was 11 she went
Yes, when she was 11 she went to therapy for a couple months. The therapist asked to meet with DH and I seperately (SD and DH together and then and SD and myself.) When she asked me what my goal for therapy was I told her I just wanted SD to have someone to confide in considering she didn't ever tell us anything about what was going on and was super secretive. After a handful of sessions where SD refused to speak to the lady, we gave up. She claimed she didn't like the therapist because she was judgemental. An hour + drive and $$$ wasnt worth just playing uno and drawing for 55 minutes. We had intentions of finding a new therapist, but since we live so far from the nearest city I guess you could say the whole thing slipped through the cracks.
pre-teen
Her hormones are likely raging and she is experiencing big time loyalty binds. Added to that she is really struggling with having that POs mother in her life. She sounds depressed.
Additionally, apples dont fall far from their mother trees. You can give her a better life, that much is obvious, but what if she doesnt WANT that for herself?
Stick to the custody agreement, dont let the child dictate that, and stick to your guns. Perhaps invest in web cams for the home, because she is growing up to be much like her mother, sad as that is.
This happened with SDnow21, the eldest. She is a total twin to her mother and thats not a good thing. She lies, is dirty and doing drugs, as well as using men for money. Just like her momma.
Good luck with this one.
Short answer - yes, they can be manipulators at any age.
Yes, a 12-year old can be a manipulator
My now 58-year old SD was & still is a world-class manipulator. I cant give you any advice. We went thru everything possible with that girl & she's still leaning on "Daaad" to help support her at this age. So, i am no success story. But reading on here, I've learned that the lack of consequences contributed to my SD's behavior. And, when she was allowed to move back and forth beyween BM and us, it only meant she never had to come to terms with a parent's boundaries, she'd just move to where the grass was greener, or to be more frank, move to where a parent had forgotten how bad it was last time.
So. definitely, YES, 12-year olds can be excellent manipulators. Throw in an indulgent dad, unstable BM and a well-meaning SM, and its easy.
YES to the lack of
YES to the lack of consequenses. She knows if she lies, nothing will happen. I've preached this since day 1 but since I've disengaged she gets away scott free with everything. This is the #1 source of conflict between DH and I because he thinks having a stern talk with her is going to get somewhere when clearly it hasn't. I think he is afraid to punish her by taking away priviledges because it will push her away. So he yells and then goes on with life as if it has never happened.
Same thing
That's exactly what my DH did. He'd have his talks with her, it didn't do much, if anything. Sometimes, when he was madder, he would yell and threaten. Actually, he did this with all 5 kids. If it wasn't so pitiful, it would be laughable. "You are grounded for 3 days!" An hour later, he'd be having another of his talks ending with, "ok, this time, im going to let you slide, but....". Next sound you'd hear was the car backing out of the driveway. The other 4 kids have done fine but The Manipulator is having unpleasant days now that she's old, physically & mentally sick and estranged from everyone except Daaad..
I started calling out DH
I started calling out DH bluffs. He would say "no Ipad next week!" I couldn't help but LOL. All he ever had was empty threats.
I laugh, too! He's a sucker.
I laugh, too! He's a sucker.
Yes. My SD9 is already a
Yes. My SD9 is already a master manipulator, so I have no doubts that your 12 year old SD can be one. A lot of the things that you said about your SD are similar to the way that mine is. There's only so much that lack of experience can be blamed for. Both of our SDs are old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. You are not being evil. You are being human. I feel the same way that you do 98% of the time. It has caused issues in my relationship and I am completely fed up with the bullsh*t. You are not alone.
To answer you yes, 12 year
To answer you yes, 12 year olds can manipulate, and so can grown a$$ men who look to a woman not the child's parent to take on the roll of raising a child.
First off what is your DH doing about discipline, chores, doing her homework, cleaning herself daily? What is he doing to ensure his daughter is being safe about using social media. Other than looking to you to tame his feral child?
Secondly, she is a pre-teen and they are disgusting. It also doesn't help that the only role model she really has, she has been told she is supposed to hate. So add in all those changing hormones, a whacked out mom, and absent father and you have a powder keg of preteen angst and anger ready to blow.
His idea of discipline is to
His idea of discipline is to "read her the riot act." He will spend hours upon hours telling her she shouldn't do this, and should do that. But she knows at this point if she just stays silent and stares at the wall, eventually he will give up and move on. 5 minutes later its as if it never happened. When she was 11 she had a phone that he controlled. He had it set so she could only go on certain websites and she couldnt dowload any apps without parental approval. He knew the passcode and would check her phone. About a year a go she convinced him to download some art sharing app for anime and he agreed. A week later when he looked through the phone we found that there was a live chat feature and it was 95% sex related. Messages started streaming across the screen about every X-rated thing you could imagine. We checked her "friends" list and there were middle aged men that she had added. It was every parents worst nightmare. He gave her a stern lecture and that was it. Never took the phone away... no consquenses. Now that her mother controls the new phone he doesn't even know the passcode. One morning at 5AM I noticed she was online on Facebook Messenger so I finally convinced him to take the phone away at night. But he still has never gone through it so she could literally be doing anything with zero consequences. In his mind she is a pure, and innocent child.
My DH also thought his 10 yo
My DH also thought his 10 yo was pure and innocent. BM got her a phone for her 9th birthday. She never discussed it with DH. I found SD10 Tik Tok account, downloaded the videos, and sent to DH. He no longer though of her "sweet and innocent" when there is proof she is dancing with her shirt pulled up singing about how she is "a bad b!tch" . I feel like I kind of ruined it for him, but it needed to be known.
It didn't phase BM. Her response was "I just want her to be herself."
I agree with the poster that
I agree with the poster that said she sounds depressed. She has the genetic influence of her mother, and, now the physical and emotional influence of this horrible woman.
The mom finally deciding to be present has clearly been bad for your SD. At a certain age and maturity level, though, people become responsible for themselves and you can no longer blame the parents. At 12, your SD isn't there. I agree with therapy. Hopefully a good therapist can help her to overcome her mother's bad influence.
If, despite therapy and despite you continuing to treat her with respect (though you should not tolerate disrespect or abuse), she continues to act this way, you can at least say you tried. All of this depends on the support and participation of your husband. If he is not on board and backing you, that is a real problem.
Also, i know how you feel about dreading being in the same room with the child. After some particularly bad behavior incidents from one of my SO's kids about 6 months ago i felt the same way. I was horrified and realy hurt by what happened. I took a big step back and am now slowly re-engaging. What i do is to try not to interact if i am tired or feeling emotionally drained. I even pray for strength before "going in." The mother in this situation is horrible, as well, in a passive aggressive way, and i know he mostly acts how he has been trained to act. It's not easy and i'm trying to re-establish a positive relationship, but with boundaries firmly in place. It's not as bad for me, though, because i don't live there. Stay strong and don't accept abuse.
VERY similar situation here.
VERY similar situation here. I met DH right after SD turned 5. He had full custody and BM lived 10 hours away. SD would go weeks at a time without hearing anything from her. BM moved closer when she was about 5 and a half. She "wanted to be more involved." More like, I heard you have a girlfriend.
SD5 started seeing her every few weekends, just Friday - Sunday (this came back to bite him, FYI). They still had an out of state agreement even though BM moved here. This worked for about a year. Us having custody and SD visiting Mom for a weekend here and there. SD would tell me the same things. Can you be my real mom? I love you. Can I call you mom? You take care of me. The SWEETEST things you could possibily hear.
DH (boyfriend at the time) asked me to move in. Things were going well for about 2 months. BM heard I moved in and then filed for "modification of parenting plan" the VERY next day. She is vindictive. Has ZERO interest in actually parenting, just an interest in making DH miserable as her.
Custody dragged on for over a year. It changed to 50/50. We were crushed. SD was now 8. Everything that had been SO sweet, suddenly turned sour. SD began "playing both sides" because she knew BM hated DH and myself. Would say ANYTHING to get attention. SD8 told BM boyfriend that we "locked her upstairs" and "is never allowed out of her room." MIND YOU, I was taking this brat to the pool EVERY SINGLE DAY in the summer. We read together, went to the pool, family trips, lunch dates, "girls movie night", etc. I quickly realized this child is manipulative and TWO FACED.
BM and DH argue over "well she told me _______" DH realizes that SD10 stirs the pot and says terrible things, he thinks "to make her mom happy." No she is just manipulative and MEAN. No one is forcing her to say these things. BM admits that she "extends the truth" NO she LIES. SD10 got caught in a lie with CPS and it looked really bad in court. She was accusing BMs boyfriend of things that never happened. SD10 is now in therapy, but BM has done SO MUCH damage. BM doesn't care and doesn't see ANYTHING wrong with: not doing school work, no screen time limits, on ALL PUBLIC social media, no bedtime, poor hygeine, etc.
I have also had to disengage because I honestly don't have anything left to do. I care deeply which is why is HARD to watch SD10 go down this path. DH is aware and it crushes him just as much. SD10 is definitely in a loyalty conflict. She is blinded by her mom and has turned into her clone.
Just realize it's nothing that YOU did or that you can solely fix. You have done everything right. Unfortunately, you can't change genetics.
Unfortunately, you can't
Unfortunately, you can't change genetics.
Isn't that the painful truth? So much of your story is similar to mine. However, I still have to live with SD9 full-time. I hate it.
money phrase:
She "wanted to be more involved." More like, I heard you have a girlfriend
Also lying to get Biodad and SM "in trouble" to make mommykins happy
At 12 yo she is not going to change
The only thing will change is SD going to figure out you have more money for her. To buy her I phone name brand cloths. Ect. Stay disengage. BM will win in the end. She will get a drinking buddy
I would try a different
I would try a different therapist and explain from the beginning that it’s their job to be nosey and form an opinion.
They do this in a bid to help people, and sometimes they can be very good. One counsellor identified that I needed to help myself by identifying my own boundaries etc, and another taught me how to take steps back from a situation and tackle things in a different manner.
An important part of counselling is showing people there are other ‘skill sets’ that you may wish to incorporate into your life and change it a bit.
we sometimes have to make an exchange (it’s called honesty) and offer information on bits of our own personality we like and dislike in exchange for some information that may change our view of life a bit.
They often don’t offer any real input until a few sessions in.
It is also their job to make people feel ‘comfortable’ talking to them, and some aren’t very good at that, so it can take a few attempts to find the right one.
Bit of both...shes been away
Bit of both...shes been away from her mom for a while.... as the saying goes, if you can't beat em join em... she could be acting that way because that's how they act and she wants to show mom she's still mama's girl.
You know she can act differently, because she has. Seems to me its a conscious choice to act the way she is...like you said, a switch. Controlled behaviour.
Have either of you asked her why she chooses to act that way?
I'm a fan of brutal honesty. I'd ask her why she used to think her mom was acting so poorly, yet is now acting in all the ways that made her sad/angry etc...
My brother was a pain when he was young. Acting out in all kinds of ways. My parents split when he was 2 or 3... he visited my dad a few times (with me) a few times over the next few years but essentially stopped when he was about 7. Hasn't really seen him since, has a huge hatred for him.
As an older teen/young adult, he developed a temper and was what some people would call emotionally/mentally abusive to my mother.
Eventually, i said to him that for someone who hates our father so much, he sure acts a lot like him. He mellowed out almost instantly....is now married with a 4 year old and twins on the way.
Sometimes you gotta hit them where it hurts to get them to clue in.... maybe she'll smarten up, maybe she'll never come back. Seems win win to me.
I would find a good child
I would find a good child therapist, someone with experience in working with abused children. The behavior you are describing is symptomatic of abuse. It may not be physical, but definitely emotional abuse. Probably PAS against you and it sounds like BM encouraged her to quit therapy the first time. BM probably felt threatened by the therapist. If SD doesn't get help, she will continue to spiral into depression.
My situation is very much like yours. An SO who was a yeller and an OSD who went from thinking I was great to hating the fact I lived and breathed. Things were great until BM got jealous and decided to reappear into thier lives. Unfortunately, at this time OSD is lost to us, she definitely has too much of BMs genetic code, but YSD has completely benefited from therapy and come around. I still have hope for her and she continues to be close to her father and I am hopeful it stays that way.
Also the therapist has made leaps and bounds with SOs parenting. SO is learning to face his fears regarding parenting SDs and set limits. Even though we have SDs I chose a male therapist. BM is less threatened by a male as she believes she has magical powers over men. SO can relate better to a male and is more relaxed.
God I hear what you are
God I hear what you are saying. Not being able to look at her or hear her voice. Hating being in the house with her. I feel the same way. I think that she acts like mom bc she thinks mom will accept her that way. She feels closer to mom if she acts like her. I would almost make it so uncomfortable for the girl, that she really does ask to live with mom. Or do what I do and just pretend the girl doesn't exist.