Stay here or move away from it all.....
So DH and I were talking about what we will do if BM doesn't agree to a lower CS amount. We have a very solid marriage and want to do what's best for everyone. Dh getting a second job here will not solve anything...he wouldn't make enough money to get ahead and would just end up owing more CS. I am not getting a second job to pay for his kids and I'm struggling with NOT resenting SKs. I have a full blown case of BM heebie jeebies...she can rot for all I care.
We have most of our income tied up in a consolidation loan until 2018 and 2020. After that this will all be an non-issue as we will be able to afford it.
Two choices
1. Go to court and claim undue hardship. This brings my financial information into it plus a whole host of other issues with regards to how we spend our money and on what.
Pros
a. We can stay here and keep our house that DH and I bought together
b. We both have full time jobs with 4 weeks vacation, medical benefits, and DH has a pension plan. Not great money...but not bad either
c. And the obvious...close to family and our friends. I have both my kids, my parents and an elderly grandmother close.
Cons
I'm still on the fence if I want my financial information dragged into all. I have major issues with this!
a. I really am against paying for SD20...she is past the age of majority, flunked post secondary the first time, worked for over a year with absolutely no savings, and has returned to post secondary. BM expects CS to be paid for her plus income share of college expenses. Ahh no....
b. IF we claim undue hardship then every cent we spend will be monitored...so are we allowed to eat out? Are we allowed to take a weekend vacation? I can't imagine having our every move watched and reported.
c. I have a BS who is still under the age of majority (not living with me) who is graduating HS this year and planning on going to med school. He is exceptionally smart and can succeed if he puts his mind to it. I need to be able to support him as much as I can...NOT SKs.
d. I have a BD that is the exact same age as SD20...and has yet to go to post secondary. Again...I need to be able to help her...NOT SKs
2. Agree to what she is asking and leave the province to go work elsewhere for more money (providing we can get jobs elsewhere!) May not have a choice in this....
PROS
a. More money...
b. May have a chance in paying off consolidation loans faster
c. Won't have BM breathing down our necks because we spend money on something besides the SKs
Cons
a. Have to leave my kids
b. Have to leave our home and families, jobs, and our lives for the sake of three years...
c. I HATE change...gives me panic attacks
d. Will resent the hell out of the situation...have to question how this will affect DH and I...and any future dealings with the Sks. I know it's not SD15's doing...but SD20 is supposed to be an adult..and both are aware of what's going on.
I have considered the "legal divorce" option...but in reality with our bills....I'm not sure we could pull off two separate living arrangement and keep the house. Plus I think it would devastate DH to even bring it up...even if it is just for financial purposes. I will have to look into this further.
Anyone have any other insights or suggestions that I'm missing? What would you do?
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Tried the re-consolidating
Tried the re-consolidating the consolidation. no go.
Helping DD and being forced to pay for SD it two different things. My DD knows that she is going to get loans for post secondary and has to work....and I will help with any expenses left...if I can.
Age is definitely a factor. The older you are, the less you should expect your way to be paid by others...especially your parents. IT's all about growing up. DD asks to borrow money if she is short and pays it back...SD just asks for more and do not even offer to pay it back. And I'm not trying to compare the two kids per say...just the maturity levels and sense entitlement.
See the difference?
Where is your exH? He is also
Where is your exH? He is also responsible for post secondary for his children.
Sorry if you've already answered this, I don't remember reading it anywhere.
My ex has nothing to do with
My ex has nothing to do with it. He will pay his share and I will pay mine.
I only asked because you said
I only asked because you said that DD will have to get loans.
If you go ahead with providing your financials, her post secondary is going to factor into it (as well as your other child), because you and your ex are obligated to pay for post secondary.
You can claim that you have to save a very large amount even if neither child is enrolled. I would get the prices for schools across the country, MaGill, Dalhousie, KIngs, York, include the costs of living on campus.
The loans are the loans.
The loans are the loans. Can't refinance ...we have tried. One of the loans is actually a family debt incurred by DH in the divorce proceedings so BM could refinance their marital home. Once that is paid..we can afford what she is asking for.
And the point to moving away is to get a higher paying job...
DH didn't cover himself very
DH didn't cover himself very well in the divorce. He was all about what was best for the kids and splitting as amicably as possible. BM makes more money..65% BM 35% DH income split.
He signed away
1. Alimony payments (Her low payment was 700 to a high of 1400 for half of their marriage so ten years). CS was to be set less than her alimony payment as per guidelines.
2. NO Pension splits (hers was more than double his)
3. NO equalization payment (calculated to be over $50,000 from HER to him)
4. HE took a consolidation loan of $40,000 that covered credit card debts and other misc owing so she could refinance their marital home in her name only.
5. Agreement at the time only stated that due to him taking high family debt there would no formalized child support but he would help as he could. Stated nothing about WHY he gave up rights to all of the other things...big omission.
Even though agreement states no formalized CS DH paid 30% for both on a monthly basis. Then once SD20 aged out at 19 it was 55% for SD15, plus helping with band trips etc as he was able. He paid 50% of SD20s first kick at post secondary. Plus spending money and supplies when he could. I have helped with all of this thus far. By joining our incomes we were managing.
NOW BM is asking for full CS for both kids..plus extras.
We want things to stay as is (CS at 55% for SD15) until the family debt loan is paid in 2018. He will agree to pay for income portion of SD20s post secondary. But SD20 should use her income (she is working while going to school) to pay for her living expenses.
AFTER the loan is paid in 2018 he will gladly pay as per federal guidelines.
They did. That is the family
They did. That is the family debt he took on through a consolidation loan.
So from your previous posts,
So from your previous posts, it seems if you pay what BM is asking, you will not need to go to court? DH could get a second job to pay the added CS and college expenses - if he does not go to court for a modification, they would not increase CS over the additonal income. This should be on your DH- he needs to make more money.
You are helping him pay his marital debt to BM? That is crazy. At the very least, you should consider seperate finances so you can help your own kids out of your income.
You are willing to move away from your own children over this? SMH. I cannot believe you would even consider that.
Just my two cents, but I'm
Just my two cents, but I'm having trouble understanding why you and Dh would buy house with mortgage together when Dh was still under heavy debt settling a divorce. And none of the kids live with you. Do you pay CS to your one still minor son?
The idea of fleeing and hopefully getting better paying jobs, I don't see as a solution. I don't know what Canada would do, but here CS would not change just because a parent moved to a different state. Also, CS would increase under review of any new higher income.
I really don't see your case as a true hardship, but more a tight situation caused by mutual decisions to max yourselves out by choice. *shrugs*
You live in a country that says parents pay secondary education and support thru it. Hardship and eating out/weekend vacations don't belong in the same discussion.
This is my solution - sell
This is my solution - sell your house, file for divorce and let DH go for hardship...
start new in new house and DH as your lover not husband lol...
or reveal your income, is there any way you can lie about it?
That's the solution I'm
That's the solution I'm leaning for Acratopotes. We were very naive in thinking BM wouldn't go for more money until the consolidation loan was paid off due to all that DH gave up in the divorce...SILLY us. Now we have ourselves backed in a corner and your solution may be the only way to come out without ruining our credit ratings and losing everything.
Hon you don't have to loose
Hon you don't have to loose anything..... not a dime
This is what you can do, you file for divorce, DH is on it, he cheated, you get the house in the settlement and DH owes you money...... DH does not want to go into dispute with you..... he simply signs the divorce papers...
It's all legal and above board lol... what's BM going to do?
HE isn't now...he signed away
HE isn't now...he signed away from it three years ago.
Per her profile, no longer
Per her profile, no longer than a year. If that. Was "getting married" at profile time a year ago.
What he paid was his
What he paid was his doing...not part of a legal agreement or taking into account anything. He wanted to help his kids..and we had to money to do it. No problem.
IT's the wanting MORE now that's the issue
Not sure how the issues get
Not sure how the issues get so intense...I gave information so people could see where I was coming from...and asking for solutions and maybe somethings that I missed that could help us.
The whys and how we got where we are can't change....
Actually HRNYC...the alimony
Actually HRNYC...the alimony is moot. The equalization payment of $50,000 she owed him that DIDN'T include alimony plus would have covered a whole lot of CS....he refused that.
THAT had nothing to do with OP or remarriage or anything.
Honestly, I would divorce
Honestly, I would divorce and have DH file for hardship. I would not move away from my children as I know I would be resentful. Also, I believe moving night damage your relationship.
The wanting more? I'm not surprised. Some BM'S think that since they birthed the kids that the father owes them for eternity.
If I were you I would find a
If I were you I would find a way to get through the next year or two until the loan is paid off in 2018. Your husband can get a second job or you two can start a side business. i would not be moving my life for the sake of one to two years of tightening your belts. Would you save any money by moving out of your house and renting it out and renting a smaller place for a couple of years?
Also I remember you talked to a lawyer about your situation did they say you would get a better deal in front of a judge or that the best deal was to accept what BM is asking for?
The lawyer did say that we do
The lawyer did say that we do have a case for undue hardship. We are just waiting on BM current financial information as her last known income was from several years ago. Which way we go depends on that I guess.
And you are right..if we can get through the next two years then it won't be so bad. But with her asking for the max we are backed into a corner with the possibility of losing everything.
I would do what you can to
I would do what you can to keep the principle in your house and not to use any retirement savings as loosing those will be really hard to work your way back up but then after that do what you can to make it work. I know you do not want your income becoming public knowledge but if that is the best option it might just be something that has to get done. At the end of the day BM can probably guess how much you earn if she knows what job you do and there is not much she can do with that information. Find out as much as you can about the details and rules of applying for hardship so that you two are fully informed when you make your decisions.
"We are just waiting on BM
"We are just waiting on BM current financial information as her last known income was from several years ago."
I wonder if she is stalling because she knows that her income is going to be high enough to factor into the CS. Her reluctance to provide her financials might mean that she doesn't want you to see it. If the standard of living at your house is lower than at hers, you will qualify. Once you know what her status is, you'll be better able to determine if you want to take it to court.
I also wonder why the loan isn't being considered. He should be able to prove that he took it out to cover marital debt.
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/fl-lf/child-enfant/guide/step8-etap8....
I'm sure you've read the link but it might help some others on here to understand Canadian CS and the hardship guidelines.
I doubt that moving will really help. Your options are probably Ontario, Alberta and BC, all of which have much higher costs of living. With oil and gas in the tank there aren't the high paying jobs there used to be.
I aslo don't think you'd have to actually divorce. You could file a legal separation and that should be enough for your income to not factor into his hardship case. He would have to move out and find a place on his own. He would still be responsible for his part of the mortgage and that will help his hardship case.
You can still date, but not sleep together and honestly tell the courts that you are separated because of financial stress and are looking for a solution.
I know it's not ideal and will make him feel terrible but this an extreme circumstance. It sounds like BM is going to push this as far as she can to get every dime out of him. I would live separately for the next 2 to 5 years until he's got something in writing from the courts or his youngest ages out. Then reconcile and continue on with life.
I would also explain to the skids that the reason for all of this. I'd be honest with them.
Thank you so much for taking
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment and offer some ideas!! We certainly are going to try our best to work this out.
The kicker is we are not asking for less....just for things to remain the same until 2018. And the separating because of financial stress is a valid issue that's for sure! It just may be our best option.
You are in such a hard spot.
You are in such a hard spot. DH is trying to be the nice guy and is getting the shite kicked out him for it.
If you do decide to go the separation route, which seems to be the best choice at this point, you need to really do it. At least for a little while.
No one is going to like this but . . . I know NL and sadly most of the people there talk and gossip and put others down to make themselves feel better. They'll make you a pie or a casserole and talk about how sad it is and how they want to help when in fact they just want more grist for the mill.
Because of that it needs to be very well known that you are separating for real and not just so that he can get hardship.
You know that BM and her family and friends are going to try to convince everyone that you've only done it to get out of paying what is owed to her.
"You could file a legal
"You could file a legal separation and that should be enough for your income to not factor into his hardship case. He would have to move out and find a place on his own. He would still be responsible for his part of the mortgage and that will help his hardship case."
"If you do decide to go the separation route, which seems to be the best choice at this point, you need to really do it. At least for a little while. "
What does that really solve?
If her DH moves out to his own apartment (example of $850 apartment a month $150 grocery and misc living expenses)... is the ex really asking for $12,000 more a year between CS and partial secondary school?
If they are legally separated
If they are legally separated her income will not factor into DHs hardship case. In fact it will probably help it because he will now have rent as well as his portion of the mortgage.
The way basic CS works in Canada is a chart, if you make x and have 1 child, you pay y, if you make x and have 2 children you pay z.
There are section 7 expenses (sports, music, dance, swimming lessons, etc.) that are divided based on the parents income, the higher wage earner pays a higher percentage.
Divorced Canadian parents are also responsible for post secondary costs, they are usually split the same as section 7 expenses and can include books and living expenses as well as tuition. CS is paid until the child is 25 or done post secondary. As long as a child doesn't move out of the primary parent's home they can start post secondary at any time and if CS stopped once the child turned 18 it can start again if the child goes to University at 21.
None of it takes into account what your expenses are or if you have taken on any of the marital debt, which OPs DH did when he divorced BM.
To claim hardship the parent paying the CS has to show that they can not afford the level of CS shown in the charts along with the section 7 costs. The court will also look at the standard of living between both homes, which includes the income/expenses of all the people living in the home. So if OPs daughter was living there, her income/expenses would be included too.
So if they stay together OPs income/expenses will be taken into account to show DHs standard of living and BM will have access to that information. If they separate his standard of living will go down and they will take into account what he's paying out each month.
In Canada you can file for a
In Canada you can file for a legal separation. You have to be legally separated (either a legal separation through the courts or physically separated for a year) before you can file for a no fault divorce.
You can get divorced in under a year if both spouses agree that there has been adultery or abuse. Which rarely happens because the abuser or adulterer doesn't want to admit to it in court.
A legal separation is the first step and protects each party from debt incurred after the separation. If they are legally separated, OPs financials will not be a factor in his hardship case.
Moving for a higher paying
Moving for a higher paying job and a second job here are two different things.
We are talking about at least doubling even tripling what DH would make. Yes the CS would go up...but he should make enough to cover that plus live as well.
A second job here would be min wage..basically everything he would make would be for CS so we would still be in the same situation.
You don't need the divorce to be final...just separated and living apart. As long as it's a legal separation it would work.
My DD doesn't expect that I pay for all her education. She knows that she will have to get loans and work...and I do what I can. SD20 worked for the last year...blew everything she made and has absolutely no savings, even though she continued to live home with BM. Has absolutely no remorse that she wasted two semesters of University paid for by DH and BM already. BM expects DH to pay full CS for her plus pay again for post secondary.
We aren't asking for less CS..only that the CS stays the same..and DH would be agreeable to paying income portion of her post secondary (less student loans).
And no...my ex doesn't pay CS for my 20 yr old. She is above the age of majority and working. Same as SD20. DD doesn't expect us to pay for all her post secondary and living expenses when she decides to go back to school. She will get student loans and we will pay the difference.
I posted this above but it
I posted this above but it bears repeating.
If you do decide to provide your financials you really should put any and all extra towards DD20s education and saving for your other child's education even if you are not actually planning on doing it.
On paper it should look like you are completely broke because you are doing what BM and SD20 are expecting DH to do.
I totally agree notsobad.
I totally agree notsobad. And I will definitely do this if we choose to go that route.
Did she waste the 2
Did she waste the 2 semesters, like she didn't earn any credits that could apply towards her college degree when she returns to school?
She took three courses the
She took three courses the first semester..flunked two. The second semester she took the two she failed plus another...but she dropped out a month and a half in. Both semesters were paid for 50/50 by DH and BM.
Don't move away. There is no
Don't move away. There is no guarantee it would work out, and if you think you resent your skids now- well, wait until they have forced you to leave your home and support system. The strain on you, DH, and your marriage will be colossal.
How willing is BM to negotiate? Can SD20 get student loans? Maybe you agree to an amount for SD20, with the amount to cover student loan payments (which will kick in after the consolidation loan is paid off).
How much do you pay in "extras" right now? Do the math to see if those extras were codified in formal CS, truly how much additional would be going out each month? The numbers might be closer than you think.
I agree if BM isn't sharing information then it's probably bad news for her. If you agree on an increased amount, but on a schedule that prevents you from having to take the hardship route, then it could work. If she isn't the rational type, then go the hardship route.
are you sure the Court will
are you sure the Court will even side with BM on the matter of SD needing support after she has already dropped out of college once?