Hateful BM and Hoildays
I know its to early but how does everyone handle hostile BM’s and holidays or birthdays.
This year my partner gets Thanksgiving and Christmas vacation starting early Christmas afternoon. He also gets the kids on the weekend of one of their birthdays.
I don’t want to rehash it all but BM has not respected his time with the kids when it comes to holidays and stuff like this. She has become an absolute b*tch. Last year she was in complete control and refused to let him have them at all to the point she disappeared one holiday. It’s a long complicated story. This year they have had an informal agreement through the lawyers. She has respected it so far but it’s been tense with her being really hateful and ALMOST refusing then suddenly giving in at the last moment. I know during those times my partner was very stressed because he just didn’t know and there wasn’t much he can do.
Hopefully the CO will be settled soon. He’s hoping to hear this week that she accepted his most recent offer. She’s had it for over a week and it’s NEARLY the same as what she entered for him to accept but she seems to be dragging her feet as always.
Even with a CO though we know she’s going to still be hateful and manipulate. Other than documenting and using it to build up a case for contempt is there anything that can be done. I serious wouldn’t put it past her to use this all as a way to attack their father. “OH we were going to do this big party but your dad said no.” Stuff like that.
I know it’s not directly my problem but when it hurts my partner it’s upsetting. I’m also starting to make plans with my family. They welcome me, him, and the kids fully. Most likely we’ll just do something small at my mom’s with only my direct family but I hate being in limbo like we were over Easter. They understand but still.
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I've learned that a Custoday
I've learned that a Custoday Order means nothing to a BM who's determined to be difficult.
That's what I'm worried
That's what I'm worried about. Even if she follows through she's always so hateful towards him. I truly believe she will use this to start driving a wedge between him and the kids.
If she pulls the "Oh we had
If she pulls the "Oh we had this big party to go to blah blah blah" crap I would tell the kids or DH needs to say "Well I don't know why your mother put it like this. I will not plan things on her time with you because that is just mean. Your time with her is important. Your time with me is important. I am sure there will be lots more parties."
Rinse and repeat. Eventually the kids will get the idea. Funny how mom doesn't ever take us to parties/ mall/ parks except when we are supposed to be with Dad.
Thank you. I know that he
Thank you.
I know that he has no intent of just letting her do it but we were trying to figure out how to handle it with the kids.
I like what you've said because it doesn't have him directly attacking their mother. He does his best to protect the kids from their issues.
We DO NOT speak about their arguments around the kids. We don't speak bad about their mother around them. For a long time he couldn't really say anything more than "that's nice" if they said something about mom but it's gotten better.
I do think your right at least with his oldest. Honestly she seems to know way more than she should BUT she also seems to be seeking help understanding. She turns to me alot for it too which is a little scary.
Don't feed, remember this
Don't feed, remember this isn't your battle. Don't waste your life worrying about it. If your DH wants to enforce his scheduled holiday time, let him handle it. And I agree with the poster above, if the BM is determined to be difficult, there's not much you can do. Ours followed the custody order but PAS'd the skids into believing that children should be with their mother on Christmas morning, and it was them asking if they could come another day. Our holiday stress decreased 1000 percent when DH just let it go.
Thankfully I know my partner
Thankfully I know my partner intends to put his foot down. I guess my bigger thing is how can we combat this early before the PSA really starts to impact them but I guess that is the magic question.
I'll probably get flamed by
I'll probably get flamed by all the "follow the CO to a T" people BUT in my opinion it is NOT worth ruining your Holiday and skid Holiday to fight over this crap because in the end, short of calling the police.. BM will do what she will do. If BM refuses to send them on Christmas afternoon, oh well, get them the day after Christmas and celebrate Christmas then. I'd rather have a nice peaceful celebration on a different day on the calendar than have a drama filled day fighting with a high conflict BM.
No flaming from me, I
No flaming from me, I absolutely agree.
In the end, if she wants to alienate, she will do it one way or another. If he chooses not to fight the HC BM, it's, "Your dad doesn't want you on the holidays." If he chooses to fight for his holidays and birthdays, it's, "Your dad doesn't care what else you have planned or what you want." It's a no win.
But your DH has to do what he has to do. Eventually, though, it just gets really old to have to continually fight the fight. Some of these bitches just don't stop.
So is the advice just give up
So is the advice just give up then? The "fighting" is between him and her and their parenting app. He puts his foot down. She refuses I guess it's court?
I'm assuming there already is
I'm assuming there already is a court order.. which she picks and chooses when she will follow...
If you are going to waste time and resources going to court again, I would do it to change the visitation days. So instead of getting skids on Christmas day, which you KNOW is going to be a drama fest with BM, just get skids the day after, problem solved. Again, it's a day on the calendar. Who cares if you get kids on the 25th.. Christmas can be celebrated just as well on the 26th. Skids make out, because they get multiple holidays and birthdays, so everyone is happy.
So does he do that for all
So does he do that for all holidays?
This isn't just Christmas. She doesn't want him to have any of them? Christmas is important to him too. Why can't he expect her to go without it every other year instead of him going without completely?
That's why the orders alternate because children should get holidays with both parents. It's not like Christmas doesn't matter to him and is extra special to her. She just doesn't want him to have the kids.
Does he just give up Easter, Summer visitation, 4th of July, and Thanksgiving too? Just accept that if Halloween or their birthday is on his weekend he wont get them at all because apparently mom's desire to be with the kids is more important then his?
What does that tell the kids about their dad? That he is less important and holidays only matter if they are with mom?
In my case, DH always has to
In my case, DH always has to present everything as if it's something BM really wanted and he's just giving in, even if it's not. My family lives far away, so any holiday visit involves a plane ticket. We don't take SSs because a) that would be two additional plane tickets and b) taking them to spend the holiday with my family would of course, cause fireworks from BM. BM in my case only wants Christmas Eve...every Christmas Eve. She claims it's because her family only gets together on Christmas Eve, but I really think it's because when the kids were small she wanted to have them every Christmas morning. DH's family gets together on Christmas Eve as well, so it's a huge bone of contention for him, but any time DH brings it up, BM goes ballistic. Last time he brought it up, she emailed her entire family and DH's entire family to tell everyone that DH and I (who were only engaged at the time, not married) planned to take her kids away from them for the holidays to see my family. She also then accused me of wanting to move next door so DH could stop paying child support. Consequently, I've told DH that Christmas Eve is off the table and he shouldn't even bring it up to her. Because she doesn't care about other holidays, DH used to take the children every holiday other than Christmas Eve (their parenting plan stipulates that they alternate every holiday except for Christmas Eve / Christmas morning). That would be fine, except as I mentioned my family is far away and taking my SSs is too expensive and would cause drama. To allow us to have some holidays with my family, DH has to convince BM she's getting some extra bonus for having the kids on holidays she doesn't care about like Thanksgiving and Easter. She used to use every Thanksgiving weekend as a trip away for her and her husband, but last year DH asked her in a way that implied that he would be sacrificing by not seeing the kids, so of course, she claimed that Thanksgiving. He did the same with Easter. Then, because he had, had the kids every Easter, my MIL then wanted to ask BM if she could have the kids on Easter even though DH and I were going away. I told DH that if his mother did that, all we'd hear about is how he didn't love his children, because he wasn't spending Easter with them (even though BM never spent an Easter with them). For his visitation weekends, when I met DH, BM was constantly trying to switch weekends because she had things she wanted to do without the kids. I told him that we needed to have some sort of consistency, because I can't just drop everything. He then put his foot down on her not just dropping the kids off or expecting him to pick them up or drop them off at school because she decided she wanted to go away (we live 40 miles away because she moved away, not because DH moved away). Her latest thing is that she now plans things on his visitation weekends and asks him if the kids can go, in front of the kids. This weekend, DH got the kids late because she had something planned and dropped them off early because she had something planned. I think she did this because DH's family always plans things on her weekends and then expects that the kids will be there, so it becomes this tit-for-tat where DH loses out on his own time because his family can't accept that DH doesn't control his children's schedules anymore.
Ex-h and I have pretty clear
Ex-h and I have pretty clear paperwork... I get even years he gets odd years... but we always switch over part of the day anyway, because well, it works for us. We've never had to use the paperwork to get our way, we're adult enough to discuss it to get to something that works for both of us. If there is a conflict, we negotiate... if I had my heart set on having them for a special one-off event, on his time, he will give it to me anyway with the understanding that if something arises for him on my time, I do the same.
If his brother comes in from Alberta, I give up "my time" because frankly it's about the kids... and they want to spend time with their uncle aunt & cousins who they see once every 2 years, really... I can just do Christmas in a few days, no biggie. Or they come over for brunch and we do it then. Whatever.
I can't imagine ever having done it a different way... I'd feel like a total heel if I denied the kids time with someone else just because I wanted to keep it for myself, or wanted to keep it just so he wouldn't have it... it's lower than low.
Their paperwork is clear but
Their paperwork is clear but she is very confrontational about respecting it. We don't put it past her to ignore that he is suppose to have his daughter for her birthday this year. This isn't going to happen often. It's just luck that it did.
So when she get's it in her head that she is entitled to have daughter that day what does he do?
It sounds like you guys worked together for the best interest of the children.
In this case BM would prefer their dad die than acknowledge that he should have time with the kids. That it's important they spend time with him too on holidays and it's not just her family that matters.
My partner is willing to bend on time but when she attempts to refuse him the full holiday is where the problem comes from. If she get's her way he wont see the kids at all on Thanksgiving any year.
Like you said at the end. "I'd feel like a total heel if I denied the kids time with someone else just because I wanted to keep it for myself." The someone else is their father and that's exactly what she's doing. She doesn't want him to have them at all.
If it was me in your SO's
If it was me in your SO's shoes - considering it's in the paperwork, I would tell my kid that the courts said I'm supposed to have DD on that day, show her the part in the paperwork, and let her know that I hope mom allows me to have her that day. If DD is mad at mom, so be it. Up to mom to justify why she thinks she can go over the courts decision with her entitlements.
I would put the ball in BM's court by showing DD that it's not mom against dad... it's mom against the court. Maybe that's even more confrontational, but it IS the truth.
I'd be very clear with DD that the courts indicated dad is to have her on that day, and it's bm that is not obeying. If she refuses access, file contempt. If course I don't remember how old SD is.... so maybe that's not really age appropriate - but I'd still tell her the truth - that she's supposed to be with dad that day.
She's 7. I'm not sure it's
She's 7. I'm not sure it's right to do that yet. I worry by the time it is it wouldn't matter.
maybe, maybe not. She's
maybe, maybe not. She's certainly old enough to understand "mommy said I wasn't allowed to see you on your birthday"... though some might suggest that is talking poorly about BM.
That is the trick. She is
That is the trick. She is such an incredibly smart girl. She is trying to figure everything out. I just don’t know if my partner would agree to just showing her the CO either way. For the most part we try to shield the kids from adult problems. I think showing her the actual agreement could help but at the same time I feel like it would open a can of warms.
I would disagree that this is
I would disagree that this is entirely an adult problem - yes, it's an issue that is between adults to resolve... but it's HER that is affected - and if mom is telling her things that are untrue - like telling her that dad doesn't want her on her birthday etc... darn tootin' it's a kid problem.
It might be opening a can of worms, but it would also perhaps give SD the clarity she seems to be seeking, if she's trying to figure things out. If she's as smart as you say, showing her the paperwork might give her the tools to connect the dots on her own.
Agreed. Hopefully we aren't
Agreed. Hopefully we aren't at that point yet. I don't think it's quite that bad but you have a very good point.
The best thing you can do is
The best thing you can do is stay out of it and be supportive. You can make yourself crazy with the what it's.
I have been on both sides of the fence and frankly they both suck. The less I worry about what the Loon is up to the better....it is a hard lesson to learn and a hard one to practice.
I worry because I know he
I worry because I know he get's hurt. When he's upset it brothers me. I could be that he stubbed his toe and I'm going to be trying to help. I can't go to court and I can't change things. What I can do is come here and vent and find advice or something.
None of us want to see our partner hurt.
I understand how you feel and
I understand how you feel and I am a planner too. My advice comes from what I wish I had known back in the day. It is between him and bm and they need to fight it out. He is a grown man and needs to fight his battles not you. You should be his rock and his shoulder. You can make yourself crazy with trying to fix it... this is a great place to vent, because it is a tough role.
The one thing you can do is
The one thing you can do is continue to make your plans. The only thing will be the day may change. Whether BM pulls a stupid stunt or not, you and SO still need to carry on traditions, make new ones of your own and celebrate events.
You know there will be food, presents (whether birthday or Christmas) and some festive accessories involved. Dad can still go about the basic plan and prepare. Whether you make a turkey and the trimmings on Thanksgiving day or do it on the weekend, it will still be Dad, you and the kid's Thanksgiving celebration.
You may have to pump Dad with 'I know, it sucks BM is stingy, but these kids will have a traditional birthday (or Thanksgiving or Christmas) with Daddy. It may not be the exact day, but it will be just as special and have just as much meaning to your little family's sense of being and tradition'. As long as it gets to happen and there is love and happiness in the event in the home along with memories of good times, that is what is most important.
Once you do have the children in Dad's home, BM can not ruin and/or control the joy the little family has in being together and celebrating. The only thing she can try and ruin is the actual calendar day. Not the event. Not the celebration. Not the smiles and laughter and hugs.
As to the actual calendar day, Dad needs to text and say he is getting them per the agreement. If he gets a big fat screw you ain't happening text in return, well that gets filed away for future usage against BM. Your Thanksgiving will go on per planned and the next morning Dad does get kids and he and you go about prettying up the leftovers n setting the table and doing whatever it was you would have done the with the kids the day before. It's ok if the meal is Friday evening after work, Dad and the kids can bake (aka pop a frozen pumpkin pie in oven) waiting for you to get home. Or preparing the meal on Saturday with a few invited guest. Whichever it is, you and Dad will be ready.
This is your family. It's the one you have chosen. It is what it is. It's never going to be prefect nor easy. It's going to be how you and Dad roll with the punches an work around a stingy *sshole BM that makes or breaks holidays and special events in your home in spite of BM.
The bright side is, these kids will get use to an enjoy these events with both parents. Dad can take the attitude of 'BM ruined it for me' or he can take the attitude of 'I'll be d*mned if BM will ruin my Thanksgiving with my children'. She might get the calendar day, at least for now, but she can't take the holiday away from them.
Thank you, I understand your
Thank you,
I understand your point. Of course I have a lot of “but that doesn’t work” or “that’s not fair” but it never is and we have built in flexibility.
So far our plans for birthdays are really simple in a lot of ways. For their birthdays we plan to just do cake, ice cream, and pizza at my mom’s. Guest list is pretty much just my close family. After that we’ll go do something but we didn’t plan to actually spend money on a party room or anything. Other than the cake everything should be fine and maybe the cake could handle being put in a fridge or freezer for a week or worse case I can always order a second one. So really the exact date isn’t locked in except for my sister and her kids trying to make it. They really can’t take two trips a week apart so hopefully it works out.
Thanksgiving is going to be at my mom’s this year since we are supposed to have the kids. It can still take place even if they aren’t there. I don’t really know how to do it late since we wouldn’t have them till the next weekend but we can still go with our plan and if she ruins it for the kids then that’s on her. Maybe we can just make it a special event of putting up the Christmas Tree and making cookies. We are also talking about putting together a care package to send to my boyfriend’s old unit.
We’ve already adjusted for Christmas. Like I said somewhere else I’m already planning on working that morning so that I can have off Thanksgiving. If he gets them at 3 or 7 doesn’t make a large difference.
If you've never tried one,
If you've never tried one, check out the DQ Dairy Queen ice cream frozen cakes. Yummy. It also does the trick in one step. You keep it frozen until just before serving.
I’ll have to look into
I’ll have to look into it.
The cake is really important to us. When I asked the kids what they wanted, the daughter was reluctant to answer. She gets this way when she is trying to give you the “right” answer. She basically said she gets cupcakes because they are cheaper. Which I understand and will never tell anyone they are wrong for doing. Her dad finally got her to understand we wanted to know which SHE wanted. She also asked for it to have a particular cartoon on it but surely they can handle that.
I think you worry way ahead
I think you worry way ahead of time. I tend to worry "just in case" too so o get it but it's a bit unreasonable. It's going to cost you health problems. It's August, and you already all worried and up on arms planning to combat it ahead of time "IF" BM doesn't let kids go to dad on Christmas. Which is over 4 months away. If and when things happen, then you'll deal with it. Enjoy last few weeks of summer.
I work for a large company.
I work for a large company. I’ve always had to start planning this early because someone has to cover the holidays. We don’t close so I looked ahead to see what this year included. He gets the kids for thanksgiving so I will be requesting that day off. He has the kids Christmas afternoon so I will most likely work that morning. I won’t be requesting off Christmas Eve since it doesn’t matter. Me being aware isn’t worrying it’s planning.
This post wasn’t just about Christmas. It’s about his children’s birthdays which are really soon as well as all of the holidays coming up.
I understand planning. So you
I understand planning. So you plan days off in hope it all works out. But you can't do nothing that much ahead of time but request days off and hope for the best. If something goes wrong then you'll have to deal with it. Or you can not request days because you fear that BM will withhold the kids. But you cannot predict what's going to happen.
That's what I am trying to say, not that you shouldn't plan. You can only really predict your own actions, not BM's. If BM starts causing issues withholudays, then you'll document and go from there. But for now, there isn't much you can do. Just worry yourself sick. And trust me I understand the feeling. I hate not being able to plan and know what's going to happen. Kids are young, you have long road ahead of you.
I'm slowly learning. The
I'm slowly learning. The advice a few people above helped.
It's also trying to coordinate with my family. It's hard to ask them to move stuff closer to my mom's place rather than my dad's so that the kids MIGHT, hopefully will be there.
Dontfeedthetrolls........UGHH
Dontfeedthetrolls........UGHHHH I remember that mess. I am so sorry it is very stressful for your DH and yes even you no matter how hard you may try to block it out.
THEN it hit us............LET GO OF THE Balloon string, or rope which ever you want to visualize.
Plan on having Thanksgiving a week earlier or the week before Thanksgiving that dh has the children. LET BM have them over the holiday. Just call her and say OK you can have them allllllll holiday long. WE don't care. They will be with you BM enjoyyyyyyyyyyyy (jaw drop on her end)
Same goes for Christmas...LET her have them. Plan to celebrate 2weeks prior. Santa is known for coming early
Same for birthdays.........let HER have them, and you celebrate before.
It is better for the kids too. JMO
I hope this helps a little. Our lives were less stressful when we let the rope go.
He only gets the kids from
He only gets the kids from Wednesday at 5 PM to Thursday at 5PM for Thanksgiving so her getting them ALLLLLL holiday doesn’t hurt her and she will love it. Honestly if we do our thanksgiving at lunch (which is normal for my family) I don’t see my partner having a problem with her picking them up early but first it’s just getting her to accept he will have them period.
I disagree that him giving up his holiday time is best for the kids. It only helps drive the wedge between them because they don’t get those happy memories with dad also. He is supposed to pick them up Christmas afternoon and have them for the next week. Should he really give up that week? I don’t understand how he’s going to build a healthy bond with the children if he’s gone every big event. How will they feel if they never get to be a part of OUR Christmas?
I agree. I don't think it's
I agree. I don't think it's wise to give up holidays. I think alternating holidays is much more beneficial
That’s how their CO is
That’s how their CO is written.
It first identifies his weekly or weekend time then goes on to holidays.
It list when his summer time starts and ends.
It identifies which holidays he gets on even or odd years. It says when the holiday starts and when it ends including date and time. It identifies what happens if it’s not his holiday but is his weekend such as Easter on even years. He would have to return the kids early on Sunday.
It states he gets Spring Break every even year from when school ends to the day before it goes back.
Christmas is the only split holiday. On even years he gets them from the day school ends to Christmas afternoon. Then odd he gets them Christmas afternoon to the day before school starts back.
She gets every mother’s day and he gets every father’s day.
It states he gets the kids for a few hours on his and their birthdays but this year one kids birthday falls on his weekend so that would mean he gets them anyways.
Tiny holidays that aren’t recognized by school aren’t included and just up to the standard weekend visitation.
The agreement itself seems pretty standard and reasonable from what I can tell. She just throws a fit because she doesn’t want to let him have the kids. She doesn’t respect their need to spend time with their dad. Her thought is they are better off with her family on holidays rather than him even if she can’t be there. Fine if it’s not his holiday.
Honestly the odd year he does get the better holidays looking at the list but that's just how it is. Next year he doesn't get Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving. But she'd rather he never get anything. It's not fair to the kids. They have a very large family. Why should they spend every 4th of July with her's when his family also does a BBQ. On and on I could complain.
One thing to consider is to
One thing to consider is to tell the kids if or when they ask is "Well, the court made a law for our family. And both mommy and daddy signed it and agreed to the law for our family. And the law for our family says you spend xx-xx for TG/Christmas with daddy this year. We don't always like the law but mommy and daddy both agreed to the law so we have to stick to it."
Make it an issue about the CO being the rule or law. If BM wants to change it she can take it to the lawmaker aka the judge.
We’ve kind of touched on
We’ve kind of touched on this. Well I have. One day in the kitchen his daughter cornered me asking questions about why they were spending so long with dad and couldn’t go back to mom. She didn’t seem upset just confused. I tried my best to explain that it’s just the rule. Since she pressed I explained that sometimes parents who are separated can’t agree on things and so the court steps in and makes choices for them. They try to decide what is fair and most of all what they feel is best for the children. She seemed to understand that.
I know that my partner is trying to avoid them knowing more than they need to. We just want the kids to be kids. They don't need to know all the details about everything but if it comes down to it I think them seeing PARTS of the official custody order would be good. By no means do they need to see the exact reason their parent's split and stuff like that. Over all though it will be his choice. I'm careful to not overstep my bounds. I have to respect that he will do what he feel is best for his kids.