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18 yo SS's right to be here

tryingjusttrying's picture

Hello all. This seems trivial in comparison to the serious issues that some stepparents are struggling with. But here goes. I do not get along with my SS 18 yo, but accept visitation arrangements. I don't want to get in the way of dad/child time. Settling into a predictable arrangment has taken time. Dh wanted SS to feel welcome in his (now our) home, so the rule in the past was SS could come over any and every time he'd like. Well, starting around 14, SS decided to take him up on it, and would come by all of the time even outside of official visitation. He does prefer his dad to his mom, and also prefers the home of his dad's over his mom's. We have a yard, a bigger house, etc. But he and I could never count on adult time because dh could never say no to SS coming over.

But dh, with prompting from me, began to enforce visitation boundaries, and for about a year or so, the schedule has been more or less settled. SS doesn't just pop in and hang out when he's supposed to be at mom's. But the other night, SS calls dh and asks if he and his friend could come over to have dinner in the backyard. They had ordered carry out. That's it. They just wanted to have dinner in the backyard, and then they left. Dh happened to have a day off of work, and spent the day recovering from a brutal work schedule. So he was around when SS brought his friend over. But now I'm anxious. What if SS wants to come here all of the time to use our backyard to hang out with friends. I'm especially concerned about his wanting to do that while I'm the only one here. SS dislikes me a lot, and though he has been outwardly polite for the most part, he would disrespect me in a minute if he could get away with it, and has (you can read my other posts for details). Plus, I know he trash talks me to his friends, so the idea of having a bunch of teens who hate me is dreadful, though his friends are outwardly polite also. But I can also see that there is nothing wrong with him wanting to hang out with his friends in his dad's home, especially since BM has an apartment and doesn't have outdoor space.

If and when SS starts asking to come over here while I'm the only one here, what would be the fair response? I have asked dh to not make arrangements in which SS and I are spending the most time together. In the past, since dh works such long hours and BM wanted less time with SS, SS would come over here to wait out his dad coming home and would essentially ignore and disrespect me while I had to mind him. I don't like the idea of my evenings being disrupted (unfortunately, I get stressed out just by his presence) just so that he can have a bit of dinner in a location that fancies him. Btw, I get stressed out because in the past, he's been hostile with me, and more recently has shown that when he can get away with it, he would ignore and trample on my preferences. And in general, I find SS to be unscrupulous and untrustworthy, so being around him puts me on edge. But I have to do my part to check my reactions to teen behavior too.

Winterglow's picture

Your home is not a hotel. He is not your child. You don't know who he's bringing over. Therefore,  I think it's absolutely reasonable to say je can't come over if his father isn't there. If he turns up without his dad being there, lock all3the doors and call your SO to get his arse there like yesterday.  If he refuses,  tell him yougoing to call the police and report intruders.. I repeat,  if he isn't there,  his kid won't be there. 

Time for a little respect. You are not this kid's mother.

Kes's picture

Totally agree with the above.  I would not agree to any stepchild being at my home when DH wasn't present.  

Survivingstephell's picture

He's 18. A legal adult so IMO he has no rights to your home as he pleases.  Enabling this leave SS no motivation to strive for his own freedom on his terms.  Why would he need to find a job and his own place to live and entertain his friends if dad's house is available?   The fact he is disrespectful to you and gets away with it, I find that wrong and the main issue with your DH.  Once  again I need to point out that your spouse allowing you to be the whipping post to an crotch dropping is wrong.  
 

Time for some new boundaries IMO.  Your house should be your sanctuary.  SS is not a friend of the marriage and should be put on notice that his time there is tied to his respectful treatment with you.  KISS.  Treat me well and you can spend time here.  Treat me like crap and you can see your dad elsewhere.    

ESMOD's picture

If you are the only one home.. you have the right to decline a visit.  His son should only be coming over when dad is home.  That seems like a fairly reasonable requirement.

Since the house is also your DH's.. he does have some right to who he wants to visit.. but he should be mindful of you as well.

Not sure if your SS is still in school.. and that is why he is still "living at home".. but any and all visits that would be outside some standard visitation (which may go beyond 18 I guess in some cases).. need to be a call and requesst.. and if your husband won't be home.. the answer is NO.

Dogmom1321's picture

NO. SD14 is not allowed to have anyone over unless DH is home. Period. I once came home to SD14 having 3 friends over and immediately told them they needed to go elsewhere. DH and I had a talk about how I refuse to be liable for other people in my home. They were vaping upstairs, raiding the fridge, and being totally disrespectful.

SD14 eventually got the hint and stopped asking me to have people over. She knows the expectations. I won't stop her from going elsewhere. The one incident when I told the kids they needed to leave, SD14 said "I'm going to spend the night at ____." GREAT, you can ask your DH permission for that. 

Does SS have a key to your home? Where does he officially live now that he's 18? Sounds like he needs to get his own apartment if he wants his own rules. I lock the doors if DH isn't home. I refuse to let my home be a thorough fare. 

Sit down and set some perameters with DH. 

Harry's picture

Why can't he go to a park and hang out there? It's your home. You have a right to day he can't come over with out DH there.   He comes to. Visit his father, not visit the house.  SS is a unrelated adult you don't need this circus.  DH can come home from work and handle it if he likes. 
'You should insist on weekend adult get-a-ways with DH.  For some adult time.  Since he not enforced no visit rules. Go away 

Winterglow's picture

In addition to this, if the kid has a key to your home, change the locks, preferably to locks with a code so that you can change the code on a regular basis,  including just before any time you go away for a day or more. The kid has no reason to enter an empty house. Like Harry said, visitation is to see hid dad, not to see the house. .

MorningMia's picture

Because of my skids' rudeness, they are no longer allowed in our home--period. NOT ALLOWED. No one who hates me is allowed here. A simple, logical rule. 
At this point, it sounds like SS just wants to hang out with his friends "at the good house." No. Go to a park.
At most, I would discuss with DH an advanced schedule with the rule that DH HAS to be there and that the hangout times don't exceed x number (like one) per month for x number (like 4) hours each time. And, like others have said, I'd discuss with DH SS's rudeness toward me. That needs to be dealt with. 

PushedToMyLimit's picture

My oldest SS and SO's mother are NOT ALLOWED at my home. I don't care who you are or who you are related to I don't tolerate disrespect on my property. Many chances were given with the same outcome so game over. I won't be a prisoner or uncomfortable in my own home and it is a hill I absolutely will die on. 

Rags's picture

No adult has a right to be on your property without the approval of both you and  your DH. If you say no, daddy gets no say.  No from one trumps yes from the other. End of discussion.

Just in case - Security system and a big hungry back yard retired police dog!

Diablo

Shieldmaiden's picture

I think you are perfectly ok to say you don't want SS coming by unannounced, and when DH is not there. You can also let DH know you'd like SS to schedule ahead so you two can make plans without them being broken by SS's whims. That's reasonable. 

 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thank you all for your feedback. I'm finding that if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. I feel affirmed in my feeling that I shouldn't have to host someone/people who would rather not have me even in the very house that they want to use. But sadly, the more challenging thing for me is trying to get my dh to see it from my perspective, especially because SS's friends are involved. Something I'm realizing is that since SS has not done well at school (he didn't get into any of the colleges he applied to because of his grades), and SS doesn't have any skills like sports or art, I think for dh, SS's friends has become very important. SS having friends that are all pretty good kids is the proof that SS is doing something right as a human being. So I think dh would not like it if I tried to interfere with plans that SS has with his friends. When I read people talk about the legal aspects, I totally understand and would agree. But if I want to keep the peace with dh, I can't call the police or take away SS's key.

Part of the problem is that dh and SS lived her for several years before I came into the picture. Dh recognizes that this fact biases him towards seeing me as the outsider in some respects. He had a light bulb moment and realized that he would never have mistaken his dad's and stepmom's home as "his" home because when they married, they bought a house together. But dh still has memories of his former family here that frame this place as originally "theirs". Meanwhile, SS definitely sees it as "their" home and me as the interloper.

So I wanted to have clarity about what I have a right to, but in terms of action, my plan is to just decline to host my SS and his friends if asked because "I'm not feeling like it". For now, I'm not going to make a grand stand. That may sound cowardly, but I think that that's a step that I can take without undue drama and then see how things go. Rightly or wrongly, since SS feels he is entitled to this house as much as me or dh, by saying 'no', it would feel as wrong to him as someone trying to block me from entering here. I don't want the drama.

Edited to add: SS is not going to try to barge in here if we say 'no'. When he was a preteen when I met him, he was angry and aggressive, but in his teen years, he's become slick. I can't tell if he truly wants to do the right thing or if he just uses being good as a mask his intentions to get away with s**t. If I want to gaslight myself, I think the former, but if I'm reminded of his manipulative ways, I think the latter. More likely, SS is going to use words to convince dh of his point of view. He's so good at words. The last time SS and I had a conflict, SS was able to get dh on his side by throwing out a red herring. He kept asking his dad, 'why does SM have a problem with me having a friend over? Why would it bother her that me and T are just watching videos quietly?" Dh started getting mad at me for this perceived hostility against them. But the problem was that SS never asked me if his friend could come over! What I fear is not that SS is going to start charging in here physically, it's that he's going to manipulate dh into thinking that I'm the bad guy. And that is just stressful having to fend that off.

Rags's picture

If your DH has enough firing brain cells to comprehend that his dad and SM's home was their home, he is willfully choosing to see otherwise with the home he and you make together. Regardless of who lived their prior to your marriage.

I would advise that you inform DH, don't ask, that the two of you will be buying a home together, or... he will be adding  you to the property deed of the home you currently live in together.  Then, keep a rolled up copy of that deed handy to smack SS around the head and shoulders with when he chooses to get obtuse on his standing in your life and marriage.

smh

Nea

Survivingstephell's picture

So what's the plan for jr to grow up and eventually launch? That seems like a bigger issue.  I'd also make it uncomfortable for him to bring friends around.  You can be sneaky about it and play dumb.  I think you need to outwit the little $hothead and DH.   We have some pretty creative members that have great ideas.  As in this topics makes for a good thread.  Lol.  
 

I hate to see a fellow stepparent suffer like this.  For DH to keep you and SS on the same level in the hiarchy stinks.  It's just not how healthy adults/marriage work.  The spouse should come first.  It doesn't sound like you do.  

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks Rags. It's clear that I'm not as bold as you. I'm learning that I'm a bit of a people pleaser, and have a hard time standing up for myself if I feel that it is displeasing to someone. But I appreciate your perspective, which I usually agree with. Whether I'm right or wrong, it still is important to me that dh feels that I'm being fair and kind. I rely on his good will for when I want my family to visit among other things, so I don't want to impose too many demands that he feel is not being fair to SS (whether it actually is or not).

Survivingstephell, exactly. I don't want to play games, but I'm thinking I'm already in it and have to have some strategy. A lot of the times, instead of focusing on how resolve a problem, I waste tons of energy going back and forth between allowing myself to react to SS's behaviors that I find objectionable, and feeling guilty about it and telling myself that I shouldn't be so judgy and an a**hole. I'm learning to accept my authentic reactions and go from there which is more productive and less stressful.

So I did take a stand and told dh that if I'm in the house without him, I prefer that SS not bring friends over. As expected, dh was not happy and asked me if I thought this would help SS like me better. He was implying that my actions were going to further alienate SS. I think dh is a bit of a people pleaser too. In the end, dh is motivated not to have his son dislike him. I worry not so much about SS's opinion, but the opinions of dh and others. But I talked about this with my sister last night, and she made me promise to repeat the mantra over and over again: "I am not the a**hole." I needed that reminder from someone who knows and loves me.

 

Winterglow's picture

Ask your DuH how many women he knows who would be happy about being alone at home with men they don't know roaming around. If he has the audacity to say he knows lots of women like that ... "OK, name them!"

Rags's picture

I readily see things when others are struggling. I am sometimeless clear or direct in seeing things that may struggle with.

Maybe because I have not had many if any of the struggles that so many SParents have had to deal with.  I am blessed to be in a marriage where we are equity life partners, we respect each other, we discuss, we generally compromise, and if one or the other has a hill to die on we can recognize that and work around or through it. We were also the CP side, DW had full physical and legal custody, and we never lived nearer than 2K miles to the NCP.  Keeping our balance was about as simple as a blended family marriage gets.

I had a long phase of people pleasing myself.  I have progressed beyond that. Part of that progression is that I do not invest in the feelings of others, at least not as my initial position on any issue. I focus on the facts, the behaviors, and the personal performance of the people in question.   DH's feels about you being fair are not reality. He needs that message firmly and regularly IMHO.  Focus on the facts and reality and do not let DH or the Skid wallow in the fantasy land of their feelings.

Did the (fill in the blank) do XYZ & LMNOP? Yes, no, or some mid point. 

Words like feel, fair, deserve, entitled, do  not stand up well to reality and facts.  Once the facts are assessed and a decision is made, if, make that IF (big IF), we decide to assess and discuss the feelings, fairness, deservedness, or entitlement that the fantasy focused side of the discussion embrasses, then we can do that. If we choose not to discuss it, then the facts stand on their own and the other side can easily be redirected to the facts. "So, has there been more information arrise that indicates that the facts as demonstrated are wrong?"

The answer is invariably no.  Then the ill equiped for reality people play the victim card or blame the side not embracing the feels of the person causing the problem, call them unfair, whine about what is deserved, or what the behavioral perpetrator is entitled to. Facts and "earned" are my foundational go to minimizing my own emotional stress and for addressing people issues.

End of word vomit fest.

For now.

As for you, NOT THE ASSHOLE!!!  The facts prove that unequivocally.

Give rose

 

 

Harry's picture

This is the person who disrespecting you.  You are not the cruise director.  But it's your ship. Just be cause SS live there before you. That gives him no rights to stay there.  Think it's time to sell that house and get a new one  a yours home with out SK

Rumplestiltskin's picture

This crap right here is why i haven't married or cohabited yet. You previously mentioned you have a grown son. Does your son treat your DH with respect? Does he come and go from your home as he pleases? Well, SS is legally grown now. Helping SS launch, whether it's helping pay for college or trade school or subsidizing housing is one thing. But invading your home - same rules and customs should apply to him as to your BS. I have 2 kids college age. The expectation is they have a plan for becoming independent adults, and they work the plan. Help depends on progress and behavior. Your DH is a big part of the problem here. He is not being a good father if he has low expectations and doesn't require effort from his son. He isn't being a good husband because he allows you to be disrespected and doesn't give you respect or privacy. 

tryingjusttrying's picture

Wow, this is why I post here. The perspectives are so helpful to have when the rest of the universe seems only to want Sparents to play "nice". Rags, I am trying to see the facts more clearly. The thing that mucks it up is a messed up childhood. My father was a malignant narcissist, and I tend to cave and cater to narcissists because I was trained to do that from a young age. To overcome that has been a mighty struggle - it sometimes feels like a Herculean task  just to identify and side with my own needs and preferences over and above the loud demands of this guy in the room who is so crystal clear about what he wants. My dh is actually not narcissistic, and has been an amazing partner. He's probably done more than anyone to help me gain the confidence to stand up for myself even though he may not like the results when it's used to stand up to SS. lol.

But dh has lots of blind spots when it comes to SS. I think that he is somewhat aware of how his ex messed up SS, and compensates by indulging SS too much. Rather than call SS out, dh turns the other cheek a little too often. And honestly, that might be the best thing for SS. SS feels unconditionally loved by dh and I think that is a net good. I fear that the only other alternative would be to constantly be critical of SS which would probably be a net harm. SS is on a path that is as good as I have witnessed. At least he's not overtly rageful, accepts that getting good grades are important, and acts polite (even if it's not sincere).

Thanks Rumpelstiltskin. Just by you saying that you didn't partner up because of crap like this helps me. Yes, it's that distressing. I was thinking today about how causing distress is actually the basis of some crimes (like hate crimes or sexual harrassment). You can violate the law even without getting physical just by using words that cause distress. But when I'm distressed, I keep gaslighting myself by saying 'it's only feelings, just get over yourself and be nice.' See above as to why I'm so unable to empathize with my own self.

To answer your question, my BS hardly comes around at all. I'm helping to pay for his apartment while he's in college, but he is very happy to live his life independently. He works, cooks for himself, does his own laundry, gets straight A;s and was just invited to join an honor society. I was over at his apartment the other day, and he was like, 'Mom, weren't you just here yesterday?' Lol. I was very happy to let him know that I was capable of leaving him alone. I often wonder how dh would react if the tables were turned and he had to share space with my BS every weekend. I guarantee you dh would have his share of complaints. But since dh has not had that experience, nor ever will, he can continue to live in the hypothetical world where he would be infinitely kind to BS if he were living here. But that is the angle I want to take: you have to be in my shoes to understand.

The idea that I'm a co-pilot of this ship and SS is just a passenger is going to be a tough one to convince dh of. Like many of us in the modern age, he has a notion of egalitarianism (as I have had) that chafes against exerting power over a child, especially without a good reason. I understand that. I'm guilty of child-centered parenting, and I explained to BS the reasons why I asked him to do the things I asked of him. But I definitely set parameters, consequences, and gave BS responsibilities. SS has zero chores. When his mom goes out of town, I have to care for the dog because my dh works long hours and both parents declare SS to be too irresponsibile to be entrusted with caring for the dog he's had since he was 10 yo. Btw, if dh doesn't explicitly tell SS to feed or walk the dog, SS would never do it himself. I find it kind of sociopathic. My making peace with embracing my authority over the home goes along with my struggle with honoring my own needs and preferences. Maybe I don't have to have a super compelling reason. Maybe I can just say 'I don't want to have guests over who could care less about me' and that's that.

Rags's picture

Unconditional love does not demand unconditional tolerance of crap behavior.

Your DH, and you, need that clarity I think.  The net good of unconditional ..... from DH to SS is suboptimizing IMHO.  

I am sorry you had to navigate the NPD waters with your dad as a kid. 

The good news is, you can now recognize it and take care of  yourself.  Focus on the facts and it makes things far clearer. At least that is how it works for me.  You can see just as clearly what is best for you what you want as SO thinks he sees for himself. Without the guild parenting rose colored goggles that SO seems to not be able to get off of his face.

Take care of  you.

Rags's picture

Lol. Your description of the co-pilot thing... I think it is more like the Soviet Navy ship command structure. The Captain militarily commands the ship but is subservient to the Political Officer.

Let So command the ship with absolute clarity that what you say.... goes. He commands at  your pleasure.

Hey, I am a DH. I know my place.

Blush

Wink

NotMeAnymore's picture

It's a great blessing that your BS is doing great! The question is why your DH can't see the example in your BS and try to get his spawn to the same achievements... mind-boggling...

One of the SS20 twins in my house went away to college, started computer engineering, ended up flunking and kicked out of engineering. Chose a "tolerable" and easy career as replacement, per his own entitled and affected words. Started doing pot, beer, and partying. In one of my non-disengaged moments that I could not hold my tongue back I said "wow he's doing pot..." and added some comments... my Disney SO bless his heart told me that his friend's son had also picked up pot at his college and that everyone is doing it... LOL my God how delusional... I said: "juts becasue everybody is doing it doesn't mean that it's ok..." like if everyone starts robbing banks, it's ok??? My point is, when parents jutsify their kids even if it is ridiculous and unreasonable, you know that the kid is going to be lost for a looooong time or maybe forever....

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks Rags for being so supportive, and for the elaboration about the commander/officer analogy. That would be great to apply in doses, though dh definitely wears the pants in the home.

Notmeanymore, dh totally accepts that SS has been an underachiever. Dh was too when he was in school, but now he's doing well. SS has been working harder and being more conscientious than ever, so I guess we'll see how he does his first year of community college. SS wanted so badly to go away for school like his friends, but I thought it would be a waste of money to send SS to live on campus just to go to community college (at 2 schools, they told him that if he did well in their community college feeder school, he could get acceptance). But after some reflection, he's decided to stay in town to go to the local one (I know, I missed my chance!)

Drinking and partying doesn't sound like a good thing to be doing. It does seem like pot is everywhere, but that certainly doesn't mean everyone has to hop on that wagon. Funny enough, SS smoked a whole bunch at once when he was a young teen and it got him really messed up, so he isn't tempted by it.

Lillywy00's picture

SS wanted so badly to go away for school like his friends, but I thought it would be a waste of money to send SS to live on campus just to go to community college (at 2 schools, they told him that if he did well in their community college feeder school, he could get acceptance). But after some reflection, he's decided to stay in town to go to the local one (I know, I missed my chance!)
 

Buy him a 2 or 3 br apartment near campus (preferably one with other college student) and rent the other bedrooms out. Charge enough to pay all or most of ss side of the apartment....voila! 

Lillywy00's picture

As expected, dh was not happy and asked me if I thought this would help SS like me better.
 

Your DH is testing your boundaries using emotional blackmail to keep you in check. 
 

His son is no longer a dependent and it's not legally required to house him heck you don't even have to open the door. 
 

Who gives a flying eff if his son likes you or not. 

 

Dh wanted SS to feel welcome in his (now our) home, so the rule in the past was SS could come over any and every time he'd like

No he cannot come over any and every time he wants because he's not the home owner with that short of privilege  

He is an adult now a guest like any other guest and needs to make his presence at your house known in advance. 

Once he turned 18 phases out of court/child support/legal system .... rules changed  

Your home, your rules! 

Winterglow's picture

Why does your DuH care more about his son feeling welcome than his wife feeling that she is only a guest in her own home?

tryingjusttrying's picture

Thanks LillyWy00 and Winterglow. You both are asking about how dh handles my feelings versus SS's. In thinking of the question, I'm realizing that I have a faulty assumption in my head. The false assumption is that I sometimes have to "take it" and that is part of the experience of having a teen in your life. But I'm visualizing a scenario in which some random teen tries to mess with me, and I would not accept that, nor would I be inclined to be friendly towards them if they did that. Maybe if he apologized and persuaded me that he would never do it again. But SS hasn't and wouldn't do that, and this is all the more unacceptable now that SS is 18 and should be a lot more mature than he is.

Dh wouldn't allow anyone to disrespect me either, except of course when it comes to his son. BM is a narcissist and is incapable of loving SS unconditionally, and I think dh wants someone (me) to compensate for that. The problem is that I have none of the history, instincts and rewards that would motivate me and to make such sacrifices worthwhile. Even if I were willing to be a punching bag, what actual benefit would there be for SS? SS wants is to have his mom and dad give him money and stroke his ego, and he wants any adult allies that come his way to do the same. For me, those are not the most important things for a child/human being. Those are just substitutes for not getting genuine love and support which I believe is a more thoughtful and considered process. If I were the BM, the entire philosophy of parenting would have been different. I can't go back and change that, so I'm left with either caving and catering to SS's substitute satisfactions or disengage.

Perhaps I would take disrespect from my own son and still be able to forgive and forget, but my BS was never that rebellious. I like to think that part of that was due to my choices in parenting and how I treated him. The BM used to cuss SS out and proclaim that she 'wanted him out of her f**king life forever' while trying to snatch his keys (SS told dh that she said that during one of several times she tried to kick SS out. Of course, she later regrets it and was lovey dovey towards him in the aftermath.) So now I should be willing to take SS's contemptuous behavior because of something someone else did to him? Again, if some value came of it, maybe that is something I would consider, but to put myself in harm's way for no real change seems totally unjustified. I'm starting to see more and more that this is a part of emotional blackmail. Dh is trying to appeal to my mother's instinct to take disrespect from SS so that his progeny and legacy can feel a little bit better even if it's at the cost of me.

Sorry for all of the text. I'm not a talkative person, but I write a lot. Btw, I don't think my dh and I could afford to buy an apartment, so I don't think that's an option for us. Bless you if it is for you!