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For those who are married - how did you work out the "future" as far as finances, belongings, etc.?

feels_like_karma's picture

Hi all! I have some questions for those of you who are married to a spouse who has kids from a previous relationship, which I realize is probably most people here. My questions involve "end of life planning," which I know isn't a pleasant subject but I think it's important to discuss.

I have posted in here before but just for context to get the full picture on my questions - my partner is 18.5 years older than me with 2 adult kids.

We have been together for coming up on 4 years. We recently had a talk about marriage. When we first started dating, I made it clear that marriage was my end game. I wasn't going to spend my life with someone who wouldn't commit to me. I don't want kids, but marriage was a non-negotiable. When this came up, he said that he wasn't against it, it just wasn't anything he planned on doing but he was okay with doing that if that's where our relationship led (meaning, he obviously wasn't going to say a few months into the relationship that he'd marry me, just that he was open to it in the future). He has been married previously for a long time so he wasn't against it completely, he just never really thought about doing it again.

I moved in with him after about 6 months of dating into a house that he owns. I was in a rental, and he loves his house, so it was never a "my place or yours?" situation. I give him money out of each paycheck (an amount we agreed on as fair) that he can use to pay for whatever household expenses he wants. Basically "rent." I also pay for pretty much all of the groceries. Our original agreement was 50/50 on that, but over time, as my finances have changed, I started just doing all the grocery shopping and paying for it myself as a way to contribute more. What I pay him monthly is equal to slightly less than half of his mortgage payment I think, so I figured since he covers most of the utility bills and pays for the upkeep/maintenance on the house, me paying for the groceries would be fair. He's never complained that I don't contribute enough, this was just me deciding that since I can contribute more, then I should. We also generally take turns paying when we go out, but I will say he definitely pays more than me, which again, he's never complained about and has told me to never feel bad about. He makes quite a bit more than me, so he says it makes sense.

Talking about the distant future hasn't come up a lot, but with marriage being on the table now, I feel like this is a conversation we should have sooner than later. I know what my expectations are, but not really what his are. He has made a couple of comments that I was concerned about (not sure that's the right word), but figured why talk about it then when we were still just dating. For instance, his mother died about a year ago and he made a comment to a friend some time after that about how "luckily for his kids, they'd benefit from it when he dies." I asked what he meant and he referred to his house given it's worth more now than he paid for it. I didn't say anything else because it wasn't the best time to talk about it, but later on he also made a comment to me about not wanting to be a "burden" on his kids and maybe he should get some end of life things figured out now. This all stemming from what him and his brother had to deal with after his parents each died. I said something to him like "you do realize that by the time that likely happens, if I'm still with you, we'll probably be married and the 'burden' would be mine, not theirs?" He kind of look confused, as if it just wasn't something he thought about. I reminded him that both of his parents died when they were divorced, meaning that he and his brother were responsible for everything because neither one had a spouse. And sure, if he dies before we're married or if we break up, then the burden falls on his kids as well. But if we're married, it would be my responsibility. I don't remember what he said but I don't think it was much of anything other than a raised eyebrow as in "never thought of that." I really think he's clueless on this stuff and just doesn't think about it. Another example is that early on, I remember him making some joke about something leading to him dying, and I joked back like "please don't, I don't want to have to find a new place to live." (I get that type of joke isn't for everyone, but we joke about things.) He made a comment like I could still stay here after he died, and I pointed out that the house would go to his kids and you know they'd kick me out in a minute. He was like "oh no, it'd be fine. Blah blah blah." So, completely clueless on how all this works which makes me concerned and want to discuss getting this stuff figured out prior to marriage.

So, obviously there's some things not clear about what would happen in the future and I want to have the conversation with him, but want to make sure I'm not out of line with my thoughts on this given I've never been in this situation before. It's something I would want to discuss regardless of our age difference, but the fact that he's the one who is older along with him having adult kids plays into me being more concerned with discussing his plans over mine. It's really not something I want to discuss as I feel like it makes me sound "greedy" and seems morbid to even think about, but I just want to make sure I look out for myself in the end and know what to expect. I don't want any assumptions made and don't want to find myself homeless (while heartbroken) 20 years from now because he died and left everything to his kids (who don't care for me). So, here are my thoughts on things:

  1. If something happens to him before we're married, I wouldn't expect anything outside of my belongings. Since I live here and have for a long time, his kids couldn't kick me out the next day or anything, but I would expect to have to find other living arrangements within a month or two. I don't know legally if I'm entitled to more than that. We don't have any joint accounts or assets, so aside from "tenant" rights or whatever you want to call it since I live here, I don't know that I have any other rights nor do I expect to have any.
  2. If something happens to him after we're married, I expect that the house would go to me so that I can continue living here in my home until I die or move into assisted living/nursing home/whatever. I don't know if he has life insurance of any kind, and would expect that if he did, his kids may get a portion of it, but that I would as well being we were married and I would need some help initially given the sudden loss of income. His house isn't paid off, so I would have a full mortgage to pay. I would be happy to set it up so that his kids get the house and everything once I die, but not before then. I'm sure there'd have to be more specifics to it than that and more to consider, but essentially that'd be what I'd offer up.

Does this sound reasonable or am I completely out of line? Is it stupid to even think about this prior to marriage or am I right in thinking we should talk about it now? I think it's also worth noting that he bought this house after he got divorced and owned it for about 5 years before I moved in with him. So within a couple of years, he'll already have lived here longer with me than without me. I haven't spent a ton of my own money on it but have spent some doing a few upgrades, like painting rooms, some new furniture, and recently redoing the entire upstairs bathroom. His kids did not grow up here (they grew up in the house their mother owns, where they all still live). His daughter lived here for a short, unpleasant amount of time (a few months), but that's all. 

I'm open to any feedback/thoughts/whatever that people have on this situation. I think if our conversation leads to him saying his kids will get everything even if we're married, it would make me rethink the marriage and even relationship completely. I can't imagine continuing to live in a house and taking care of a house when I know there's a very good chance that I'll be tossed out of it in the end with nothing to show for it. And in case anyone wants to ask "what's in it for him," I don't have assets to leave him because I don't own a house, but I do have life insurance that he would 100% benefit from if I should go before him, and all of my belongings would become his. He won't be "well off" just from my death, but it'll be more than he needs to continue on without me. I've actually made him the beneficiary on my life insurance already simply because there's no one else I'd rather leave it to. I do have neices & nephews, but he is my partner and he would be the only one financially affected by my death.

Thanks for any help!

ESMOD's picture

There are a lot of ways things can go with this.  He may be interested in allowing you to stay there if he has passed.. or he may be inclined to want his kids to inherit.. right then and there.. and it be up to them whether the home is sold or not.

But. that doesn't mean that he may not be prepared to also leave you with the means to carry on.. perhaps carry a life insurance policy.. 

I think monetizing the marriage.. or your feelings of being "entitled" to his home if he passes would be similar to his kids who likely also have an expectation that THEY are entitled to this home bought prior to your relationship.. and for the most part he has paid the upkeep etc.. (you have paid some "rent".. but were not part of the payments prior to you knowing him.. or the downpayment.. you just don't have equal footing there).  And.. you can certainly still live in it as your home... why on earth not? but you would not want to pay towards updates.. repairs etc.. he owns the home.. he is responsible for those things.. and you just pay a "rent".. that is likely less than you would pay for a one bedroom for yourself in an apartment.. or whatever your other choice would be if you didn't live with him.

Maybe you could ask him about a stipulation giving you a year to stay there.. so you could prepare to find a place of your own.. with the age difference.. it's quite likely you will meet someone new at some point.. so this home may not be the issue really... other than you don't want to let go of the fact that you might want the value of it yourself someday?

If your idea is that once you marry.. everything becomes joint.l only really works if YOU have a similarly valued asset or investments that he would get.. otherwise.. I see it reasonable for him to decide to do with the house what he wants.

of course though.. talk to him.. he may have not thought about your idea at all.

feels_like_karma's picture

I would think it'd make more sense for him to get life insurance policies so that they have the money and let me keep the house since it's my home. It's never been their home so there shouldn't be any reason why they need the house above all else. I don't want the value of the house, I want to be able to stay in my home for the rest of my life. I would like to be able to pass on any equity I build on it to someone else in my family, but if that wasn't a possibility then I'm fine with it just going to his kids. It's not a monetary thing for me.

la_dulce_vida's picture

If it's not about money, then the easy thing to do is for him to update his will so that, married or not, you can live in the house for the rest of your life or until you choose to move out. My partner's mother's boyfriend did this for her. She's living in his condo and there was money set aside to pay the taxes and any repairs while she lives there. The sons will inherit and are not too thrilled that she's outlived their father by so many years - she turns 93 this year. LOLOL

feels_like_karma's picture

LOL! I do like this idea. I have no problem with them getting it after I die. The only issue I forsee is that with the age difference, I'm only 10-12 years older than his kids. So they might be waiting a long time for that.

CLove's picture

This is one of THE most important things to have on the table prior to the wedding (besides rules for things like monogamy etc...)

There are lots and lots of opinions here on Steptalk: These are from the Adult Forum (no not that kind of adult lol)

https://www.steptalk.org/forum/parenting/adult-stepchildren/sd-after-her...

https://www.steptalk.org/forum/parenting/disengaging/disengaged-and-star...

https://www.steptalk.org/blog/floridagirlal/inheritance-step-families-48254

search bar up top "inheritance"

In my opinion, once married, they are marital assets, unless stipulated. You go, he gets everything. He goes, you get everything.

I also do no have children of my own, but really, these "children" do not automatically get dibs on their fathers stuff simply because they share DNA.

And absolutely have this covered in detail in wills. Do it NOW. And dont wait. Domestic partners are less protected. Youll need to cover things like Power of Attorney (who and when the plug gets pulled etc...).

Read around on the Blogs and do the searches and youll read the stories of how steppers get stepped on when their life partner dies and the skid-vultures come a'circling.

I myself have zero intention of leaving a dime to skids. Im still trying to choose a charity...

feels_like_karma's picture

Thank you! I have no intention on leaving anything of mine to his kids. I more meant just the house, to show I'm not just trying to make money off of him. I'd give it to them when I pass since it makes sense, but I agree that DNA shouldn't mean immediately entitled to anything. Kids shouldn't bank on getting anything from their parents. It's spouses' jobs to take care of each other in the end, in my opinion. If my dad died, I'd 100% expect my stepmom to get everything.

ESMOD's picture

I would also say that marrying someone should not necessarily mean you are entitled to things either.  2nd marriages are complicated.  People often have put together significant financial investments and equity together.   Is it fair necessarily for someone to swoop in and marry someone for 5 months and reap the benefits of that person's labor that was earned for decades prior to them meeting when they die 6 months into the marriage?? That's sort of why I made some suggestions that would give you more rights the longer you are a partner to him in marriage.  And just like kids can't expect to automatically inherit.. he doesn't have to automatically will his home to you.. or for your benefit either.. he could provide for some other way that you would have support.. a bequeath of stock.. or maybe a life insurance policy.

You say he could give those things to his kids.. but he may want them to have the house.. and it's his to deternine.. if he feels he is helping to support you.. then that may be fair.  It is also probably assumed by him that you could likely have many more earning years to recover and support yourself than he would in reverse.. since he is already within a decade or so of retirement.

Unfortunately.. it's difficult to have this discussio without it kind of coming off like you are asking to have his kids cut out.. to ask to benefit personally.. so unless you have some equitable value that you are putting in the pot.. this may be an asset he considers to be "outside" of the marital property.

feels_like_karma's picture

I'm not asking to have the kids cut out. I said I have no problem ensuring it goes to them after I die, or if I decide to leave before then. However it works out.

ESMOD's picture

I'm not saying you are asking them to be cut out.. but you may be asking to have them delay access to the value in the home. Realisticly.. you are in your early thirties.. he is in his early 50's.. if he dies 6 months after you marry.. you will be a very young woman.. and his kids are to expect to wait for their inheritence from their father for 60 years.. as you live on into your 90's? 

Again... having a stipulation based on length of time you are married would be very reasonable.. you put in time for a long term marriage.. you have more "right" to live in the home.. if the marriage ends up being relatively short.. because he dies?  Well.. you would be a young woman.. who could move on more easily.. right?  

I will say that if I was his kids.. and if he has given them the expectation that the home will go to them when he dies.. because it's a home he bought prior to your relationship.. and that he maintains and pays for (you pay him rent.. a renter wouldn't have rights to the home correct?).  He is very unlikely to change his mind.. and perhaps see your motive for marriage is tinged with financial gain.. (by getting to stay in the home.. for an indefinite period of time).

And.. there also is the matter of the remaining loan.. who would take that on? you? would you pay them the rent.. they pay the mortgage? that seems to really suck on their end. if it works out like that.. and if you pay the loan.. then how do you extract your value on appreciation after you own it.

Honestly.. you are better off not even wanting the house under those circumstances... just move on.. fine a new place.. with the money he leaves you.

feels_like_karma's picture

He's never given them any expectation on anything. It's never been a topic of discussion. And honestly I don't care what he told them prior to me if he did, marriage can change things. And I would expect that he'd have a new conversation with them based on whatever decisions we make.

la_dulce_vida's picture

Exactly! The way I read it from some posters here, as soon as I remarry, all my assets are now joint assets. NO FREAKING WAY is that happening. If I had gone by that credo, my 2nd husband would have spent every cent I had.

Nope Nope Nope.

Not tryna be mean, but I get the sense that those who don't have much to bring to the table seem too comfortable expecting an equal share.

I have assets and so does my partner. I believe he has a bigger chunk than I do, but I am NOT interested in any of his wealth. I am fully prepared to provide for myself in my dotage. What he CAN provide me is an affordable lifestyle. Because living with him is so affordable, I'm able to aggressively save towards retirement and sharing the very low cost of living in his house will stretch my retirement dollars a long way.

If he wants to leave ALL his money to his daughter, I don't give a fig. But, if we marry, I've told him we should start investing together, and the wealth we build together will be mine if he passes away.

CajunMom's picture

DH and I did not co-habitate so I cannot give any advice from that perspective. We dated 18 months, then married. We have iron clad wills done by my attorney who went through his own divorce. I don't see anything wrong in you asking for some security in your future, should he die before you.  As your wife, he should have concerns of where you will live, finances, etc. You could ask for Usafruct over the home - gives you the right to live there until you die  but you will be responsible for all repairs and upkeep even though it will belong to his kids (they are suppose to split but as my attorney said, that RARELY happens). I see nothing wrong in asking for a portion of a life insurance policy or him getting one strictly for you. 

Other things to take note of:, Burial policies,  POAs, Medical POA's, Living Wills, etc. We have executors appointed for both myself and DH, my daughter is Medical POA for both of us (she's in medicine) and we both have fully paid burial policies with clear directions on what we want for services. 

I would suggest visiting with an attorney who specializes in Estate planning, making sure he/she is well versed in the marriage after divorce world. They are good at explaining things. In our case, DHs home (rental property income for us) was switched from Usafruct to "willed to me" due to his kids' behaviors and what they could do within that Usafruct (in my state). Attorney said this would make my life a lot easier this way and I'll will the home to them when I die. 

While no one wants to talk about death, we will all face that moment so why not be prepared and then put it to rest? I cannot imagine having to be uprooted from my home in the very beginnings of grieving my life partner's death; or having to deal with greedy adult kids. While I would never short change anyone what is their due, I sure as hell don't want to be short changed either. Best to you. 

CajunMom's picture

That would be on the person living in it along with some other BS attachments. While the law says they'd be responsible for half, it's very difficult to make them pay. And when it's your "home", you are stuck as you have to repair your home. Also, crazy thing here...no over night guests of the opposite sex. I know this to be true as a friend of mine was in such a situation. After her DH died, his adult kids gave her so much trouble...would actually drive by at night to see if she had any overnight guests. Add that the home needed a major repair. So, considering her DH left her in a great financial position to begin with (as he should have because she nursed him through years of dementia rather than putting him in a facility), she returned the house and bought her own place. To this date, the kids are letting the house sit empty and literally fall apart. 

Again, I strongly suggest meeting with an attorney independently to get your ducks in a row. These laws vary state to state. With your future at stake, you need clear and consise answers.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

My Dad remarried and he and my SM live in HER home in FL. Her children will inherit that home, but there is a stipulation in the will. If she predeceases him, he can live there for the remainder of his life. Until then - or if he decides to move out - the home cannot be sold and he cannot be "kicked out".

feels_like_karma's picture

I think that's something I would go for. My only concern would be am I allowed to do any changes to the home? And if I do, will I gain anything from  that or does it all go for his kids? Say for example the house is valued at 200k when he dies, 5 years later I remodel and now it's work 300k. Does any of that equity come back to my beneficiaries? Or maybe I wouldn't even be allowed to do anything. I definitely will suggest talking to an attorney once we're married.

2Tired4Drama's picture

Marriage may not be the best choice for YOU financially. 

If your DH winds up needing long-term care (since he is older) that can chew through his (and you as his wife) assets pretty quickly. Depending on the State you live in, those assets can be vulnerable to attachment if there are outstanding bills once he passes.  It's easy now to say you might take care of him at home but that may not be realistic depending on what may happen to him. 

Do some research yourself and see what you may be liable for as his spouse to include debt for long-term care. Because his house is still mortgaged, that adds another complication. His debts may very well be your debts.

I am not married to my SO (after almost 20 years) and never will be. We both have wills, POAs, etc. drawn up by attorneys. Even if you two aren't married, you can easily get things spelled out legally.  

The reason I will not marry my SO is because I have kept my own finances and property and if need be, I can pack up and move there in a minute. I refuse to be married to anyone with kids.  There is zero guarantee that some skid/gskid won't show up at some point and play on heartstrings, drain bank accounts, attach property, get wills changed, and put both spouses at risk especially as they get older.  

notarelative's picture

Would he consider moving and buying something that you own together? We each had our homes. He sold his and moved in with me for a couple of years until my youngest launched and then I sold mine and we bought together. This one is left to the surviving spouse.

(At first he moved into my house. Before I sold and we moved to the joint house, the prenup gave him the right to live in the house (dower rights in my state) but he could not move anyone in with him. He could have overnight guests, but no one could live there with him.)

Definitely consider a prenuptial. It gets all the money issues, the ones people want to tiptoe around, out in the open and let's you come to joint decisions. It's hard work, but well worth it. I recommend that when you do this, that each of you has your own lawyer. You want to be sure that your lawyer has your interests at heart. And using two lawyers makes it almost impossible for the kids to overturn. 

Our prenup is basically what was mine before marriage is mine after. What was his before marriage is his after. What we title jointly goes to the surviving spouse. After marriage we made wills that reflect the prenup. 

The pre marriage conversations will be hard, but they are necessary. You want this settled before marriage or it will fester and cause problems later.

 

feels_like_karma's picture

No, he wouldn't move, and I don't blame him. He loves this house. Not so much the house itself as it's really nothing spectacular, but more the land and surroundings. I think we'll for sure get legal advice prior to marriage. Thank you!

Rags's picture

From day one, though at that time and for the first 3 years of our 28+ year marriage I was the sole income and DW was a SAHM, all income was and has always been marital income.  

We married 8mos after meeting.  Our wedding, we eloped, was a week before SS-30 turned 2yo.

Our wedding was 5mos after I graduated with my BS in Engineering.

Since then, collectively we have finished a dual major BS (DW), an MBA each, a professional certification each, and built two reasonably successful careers.  All income has remained marital income. The only separate accounts we have are 401Ks or IRAs.  All other accounts are joint.

Due to the age of my SS when we met (15mos) and due to our marriage starting with nothing but two 8yo cars, two apartments full of college furniture, and my newly printed BS blending finances and building a life together has been far less dramatic and traumatic than many in blended family situations.

We agreed early in our marriage that as equity life partners we were also equity parents to any children in our marriage regardless of kid biology. As it turned out, SS is an only child in our marriage/family and from even before our wedding we were and have been the 3 Musketeers.

Regarding inherritance, Wills, etc... We have a joint WIll. We are each other's sole heir and beneficiary if one of us pre-deceaces the other. In the event of our co-demise, our estate goes into trust for SS until he either completes a Bachelor's degree from an accredited university or turns 40yo. Whichever is first.  My dad and my brother are co-executors of the trust. The terms of the trust include it funding SS's college education and reasonable support costs.

We keep it pretty simple. We have our life together, our joint resources, have raised out son, and are living our adventure.

That has included keeping the SpermClan pummelled into submission when they neglected our son while he was on SpermLand visitation. When they tried to manipulate and PAS our son.  when they deviated from the stipulations of the CO, or when they crawled out from under their slime covered rock at the bottom of their shallow and polluted gene pool.

One of our primary topics of discussion with our attorney when we were having our Will done was protecting our estate from the SpermClan and preventing them benefitig from even one penny of the resources we earned.

As it has turned out, SS aged out from under the CO at 18, the SpermClan immediately went silent with him as soon as their CS obligation expired.  Until....... he enlisted in the USAF.  As soon as he enlisted the permGrandHag started the full court guilt press to get him to agree to repay the CS that the SpermClan had paid to my DW and help support his three younger also out of wedlock Spermidiot spawned half sibs by three other baby mamas.

We had raised SS with the facts regarding his Spermidiot's arrest record, cheating, etc, etc, etc... As they manipulated and lied to him, we introduced him to the facts in an age appropriate manner.  By the time he aged out from under the CO he was able to protect himself from their lies and manipulations.

He asked me to adopt him when he was 22. We made that happen.

As it has turned out, rthe SpermClan became irrelevant to my bride and I, and to our son.

He is a truly good person, a viable adult, successful in his career, and had put the shallow and polluted half of his gene pool far in his past.  Our combined income is still marital income. Eventually, it will be our son's. Hopefully in a at least a few decades. Not that he will need it. He will have his own notable estate to retire on.

That is our story.

 

 

 

ESMOD's picture

Just because this will be and is your home currently.. doesn't mean it has to be your home for the rest of your life.  People move.. all the time.  What is more important is that you have a common viewpoint as to how you want to distribute your estates in general.  You don't have kids.. he does.  He is 18.5 years further down the road with amassing his "wealth" and he has a valuable asset in that home that he brings to the table.  What do you bring to the table that "matches" that.  It seems all fine and good to say.. well all I have will go to him.. but if you have relatively little.. it's not the same thing to tell him that he has to leave the home to you when he has likely much more invested in the home.. financially especially.. than you do.

Are you not capable of financially providing a home for yourself? 

I mean.. I can see him thinking that the home.. which is likely his most valuable asset.. that he has rolled decades of his effort into.. that he wants to give it to his kids.. wants to leave them a legacy.  You have been together.. about 5 years?.. you have paid some rent.. but he has still been the one substantially supporting the house as his financial asset. 

I can see some ability to allow you to remain there for some period of time to get your feet under you... and maybe he could even make it dependent on the longevity of your marriage.

If you are married 5 years or less?  you get up to a year (paying rent to his kids).. to remain in the home.

You are married 5-10 years.. maybe you get a couple of years.

You are married over 10 years.. you get a couple years.. and the option to buy out his kids interest in the home?

You are married 20 years.. you get "lifetime" use rights to the home until you pass or go into nursing home.. or voluntarily move for other reasons.

I would be careful with him here.. it has a whiff of him not being totally interested in financially joining you in joint finances.. and he seems to assume his kids will get the house.. and he isn't thinking that you would stay there.. so if he is not all in on mariage.. this might push him away further from it.

But.. if you both have a disparity in net worth.. a prenup is probably the best idea.. at least you both know where things will stand. (and you can have as I said above.. length of marriage stipulations.. which could make you more comfortable for the long haul).

feels_like_karma's picture

How do you get that he's put "decades" of effort into it? He lived here for about 4.5 years before I moved in... he's done nothing to the house prior to me coming here. So I don't understand what you mean? This isn't the house he lived in while he was married, and his kids did not grow up here. Buying my own house isn't something I've even thought about since I moved in with him. I was renting at the time, he asked me to move in, and here we are 4 years later. 

SteppedOut's picture

Sorry ESMOD - you sound really anti-second-younger wife.

OP - let me give you a different perspecitive to think on.

Your SO picked out this house and how much he was going to spend on the mortgage (monthly) approximately 5 years before you moved in and he makes a significantly larger salary than you do. Did he put a large down payment on the home? (This does make a difference, imo.) 

You are now paying half of the mortgage - an amount you had no decision on. Why? Is this a large portion of your salary? Would you have selected a house this expensive if you purchased a home? Does the amount make it so you are unable to save to purchase your own home and build your own equity (and stability). Perhaps your rent shouldn't be half the mortgage? To allow you to save money for a place to live once his children inherrit the home. Statistically, since you are so much younger, you will out live him. I definately would not be making upgrades to the home. 

Also, are you SURE he is really considering marriage? You mentioned that he was previously married for a long time. But that he was surprised or caught off guard when you mentioned that you would be caring for him when he was aged, or taking care of "final arrangements" doesn't sound like he is truly on board with being married to you - and having it be a "true marriage". Do  you think he would marry you "just to keep you quiet" - but perhaps not be "all in" on "being married". Perhaps you are looking for more of a traditional marriage and he is more interested in a companion right now. Neither are wrong per se, but they are completely different. 

I think that you really need to have these hard converstations with him sooner rather than later - DEFINATELY before you are married. Perhaps he doesn't want a "true life partner" and that is what you want? I think you should find that out before you spend too much more time with him - shit or get off the pot kinda thing. If he isn't into the same thing, you don't want to find that out 5 - 10 - 15 years down the road with little opportunity to find that for yourself. 

 

feels_like_karma's picture

I definitely agree with your first statement...I'm by no means a gold digger and am absolutely not trying to cut his kids out of anything as it seems that person is trying to suggest.

He doesn't make "significantly" more than me, but he does make about $20-30k more depending on how much he works in a year. And actually now that I think about it, when we met, we made close to the same amount. I just had significantly more bills than him (lots of financial issues around my ex that I won't get into), so my spending ability was a lot less than his. All that has changed over time, and I believe it was within the first year that he changed jobs and started making about what he makes now. I think he did the standard 20% down payment or about $20k, which he paid for using money that he received in the settlement from his ex-wife. She essentially had to buy him out of the house they owned together, so she cashed out part of her retirement fund to pay him off.  He used it for the down payment, and to pay off debts he had (credit cards, etc.), and then pretty much had nothing left of it after that. Throughout their marriage, she was the breadwinner and made significantly more than he did. He was never much of a saver (still isn't), so the settlement was the only reason he was able to buy a house. He had no money saved up for himself.

I don't pay half the mortgage, it's slightly less than that. He didn't say "I want you to pay half my mortgage", it's just a number we agreed upon that seemed fair. I didn't even know how much his mortgage was at the time. I believe it was about what most people would pay to rent a room out, and we do have a spare room that's considered "my room" even though I don't sleep there. That room is just where I put a lot of my stuff when I moved in (bed, dresser, etc.) and basically turned it into a guest room. The thought being that if something should happen and we break up, I would have my own space to go to until I found somewhere else to live. This was kind of a "safety net" considering we were moving in together so quickly and really didn't know how it would go. 

I think if our conversation results in him basically saying he expects 100% of everything to go to his kids, I would probably tell him I no longer feel it's fair to pay "rent" persay and instead save the money for myself if I'm going to be homeless when he dies. I'll continue contributing in other ways, but the rent would become savings. But truthfully, if he thinks I shouldn't get anything, that'd probably be the end of the relationship. I don't really think he will think that way, I just think he truly hasn't thought about what it looks like to get married again in his situation. 

I know there are state laws that would entitle me to certain amounts if we're married and he dies without a will (even considering that he has kids with someone else), so it seems like it shouldn't be unreasonable for me to have these expectations. I do agree that this is a conversation that needs to be had sooner than later and will figure out the right time to have it. I'll try to provide an update if I remember!

la_dulce_vida's picture

In my state, you are only entitled to joint marital assets acquired during the marriage. If you're only married a short time it wouldn't be much and likely not influence your ability to stay in the house.

ESMOD's picture

Why would you be homeless.. do you not make enough to support yourself?  I'm not anti young new wife.. but paying rent is different than buying into the home. Would you buy in the relative downpmt at market value and be added to mortgage and deed? He could then leave his half as he wants you have your half.   

I just don't see marriage automatically entitles someone to a home per se... it works best under equal conditions.  Him wanting to leave the home to his kids.. you have to understand how the age difference complicates that 

feels_like_karma's picture

I would be happy to buy into the home and make it equal shares if that's what he's willing to do. But that would be in place of any "rent" as I would be paying on the mortgage going forward. I would also expect that if either of us dies, it 100% goes to the other spouse, and then his kids. I have far more health issues than he ever has had so I honestly would not be surprised if he does outlive me. But if he goes first, I am not giving up half of my home for his kids who barely see him or spend time with him as it is. My whole purpose of this conversation is figure out what we can agree on so that I know I will not be screwed in the end, as I am the one without such a valuable asset BECAUSE I DON'T NEED ONE. You keep asking if I don't make enough to support myself and I've said many times that's not the case. You also are acting like I'm going after his money and I've said time and time again that's not the case. I really see zero help in any of your responses.

Rags's picture

My GM had major health problems for much of her adult life.  Several major surgeries, etc....  When my GF took his retirement he took the full amount rather than a lesser amount to provide for my GM upon GF's demise.  They fully expected my GF to long outlive my GM. 

He passed at nearly 85.  My GM lived another 5 years and also passed at nearly 85.   There was plenty to provide for my GM after my GF passed. Though if she had lived a whole lot longer, that would not have been the case.

When planning retirement years finances, it is a good idea to run multiple scenarios and accomodate the options that cover the broadest range of outcomes regarding partner longevity.

IMHO of course.

Kaylee's picture

I just don't see that children should automatically inherit a home either.....

In NZ and the UK, a person can make a will and leave his/her estate to anyone they choose to.

A child may contest it but success is unlikely. If on the other hand a person dies intestate, their estate will be shared out in order of priority: spouse first, then children....

https://riaabarkergillette.com/uk/your-childrens-inheritance-rights/http...

Get rid of the notion that you HAVE to leave everything to your children. You don't have to if you don't want to.

In my case I definitely am because they are lovely people and could not be more deserving. But some of the stories on this site about toxic children make me ill, and wonder why people would leave their estate to them just because they are "my kids"?

 

Flustered's picture

We did equal monies into accounts for almost 25 Years. We did new wills a year ago and DH died 6 mos later. (We carried zero debt.) My SD said all of her fathers $ from her DOB to our marriage and 50%  during marriage was hers. . Our lawyer flatly told her no, it's not in the will. My daughter pointed out if that was the case, 50% of marriage and all after his death was hers. Nope, we had identical wills. I needed my DH off my will as executor and needed a trust for minor grandkids.  The rest stays the same. SD is not happy as SD dislikes idea she has no kids and BD does...My BD is a bit upset, but as her children have a trust? She will make out better. You can't please anyone. 
 

if we had no wills, I would get all that are POD or beneficiary to me and houses ( joint ownership) and  first $50 k and the rest gets split with his BD / my SD. Then down the road? My BD gets everything from me. SD would have almost zip.

***see an estate lawyer. Get your house set up as a life estate so you can stay for life. Get the lawyer to write in the spousal trusts ( good when you are both alive) for each other to cover nursing home, etc. And... if you are that young, get yourself LTC insurance.***

feels_like_karma's picture

Thank you! This is helpful. I would absolutely require that we have wills because I know his daughter would be like your SD. 

tfsimmons's picture

Joint Property is all about Survivorship...  However - I believe that also requires both names on the property title...  Definitely see a lawyer and prepare yourself before you go too far down this road...  My husband and I are also 18 years apart - which was nothing when we married at 39 and 57... Twenty three years later we are 62 and 80... Completely different scenarios but our love has only strengthed over time (and going thru Hell) together.  You will need waterproof protection for your future - and his children can still be compensated for their "lucky sperm club" membership.    Good luck - or get out if you get push back... BTW -I wouldn't be paying rent and he shouldn't even let you!  Does not pass the sniff test for me - but we are "old school"!

feels_like_karma's picture

I don't see it as rent, it's just me giving him money to contribute towards the bills however he pleases. I've offered to take over paying for certain bills instead but he said this is just easier so I've left it at that. The bills are in his name and he's old school (he still gets paper bills lol), so he likes to make sure things get paid! 

notarelative's picture

Slate featured a remarriage financial question. The last part of the answer is, I think, applicable here.

If this is your first marriage, merge your assets gradually and carefully. If it is your second marriage, proceed with more caution. I understand that you want to be husband and wife, rather than roommates, but you may have more success by maintaining your financial independence. That way, you’re together because you want to be, and not because your union is dictated by finances.

ESMOD's picture

Rags,  Unfortunately, the reality is that many marriages do not stand the test of time.  The very fact that so many people are on this site are involved in 2nd and third marriages.. should provide some amount of justification for that kind of thinking.  

I don't think people are not "all in" emotionally to a marriage when they seek to protect themselves financially... especially when there may be a great imbalance.. or when there may be different outlooks on estate planning for their kids.. or lack thereof.

In this case.. you have one person who has an almost 20 year head start on their partner in building wealth.. (whether he has or not.. whether the house has equity or not? that hasn't been stated.. but it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that someone 20 years older might have had a bit of a head start in that dept.)  He has children.. that HE wants to inherit his home (it doesn't sound like this is being driven by the kids.. but by his preferences.. or at least long standing belief).. A home he had prior to marriage.. and the fact that his GF has been paying him rent (that he used in part to pay the mortgage).. doesn't automatically entitle her to a share in the home.. any more than my SD is entitled to equity in the townhouse she rents from the rental company that uses her rent to pay their loan. 

If she wants to become a full equity partner in the home.. there could be some "buy in".. where she would pay to offset the downpmt.. equity in the  home to date.. then they could get a joint mortgage and equally move forward paying for the home and it's upkeep together.  

Or.. she could continue to contribute a fair rent amount.. and he would remain 100% responsible for ensuring insurance.. taxes.. repairs and improvements are made.. retaining 100% interest and equity in his name to bequeath as he desires.. which may, in fact be his GF at some point.. but he may be less comfortable doing that at the outset.. because... lots of relationships don't work out.. so he might really want to be conservative in protecting his investment.. 

I think the suggestion I made.. where she gets more interest in the property .. the longer they remain married makes sense..  If the relationshp doesn't last.. he hasn't given her half of a property he had a much larger part in acquiring... if they are not together long.. he passes in a short period of time.. his interest was to have his kids inherit.. and if she is given lifetime rights at 42 years old.. that may be unpalatably too long for him to contemplate.. and certainly a 42 year old is fully capable of securing housing for themselves.. especially if he has taken some insurance out to that benefit.

I guess I see a lot more people on here with PROBLEMS of splitting up assets than the people who retained things in their own names.. and were more easily able to get out of toxic situations... I didn't put my DH on my deed when we got married.. he did pay me rent.. we have been together for 20 years.. and have since purchased things jointly.. but just getting married didn't mean I was automatically going to offer up equity I had spent decades earning.

feels_like_karma's picture

Where did I ever say that he wants his kids to inherit everything? Please stop making assumptions. I said he made a comment in passing, based on what he's experienced since his parents died. He & his brother had to take care of his parents' "estates" after they died, so I think he naturally thought of his kids having to do the same. No thought into what it would actually look like later on if/when we get married. He never said that's what he WANTED, and part of the conversation I'm wanting to have with him is to help determine what that should look like. 

ESMOD's picture

" I asked what he meant and he referred to his house given it's worth more now than he paid for it. " you were talking in your original post about how his kids would benefit from inheriting the house when he dies... and the value it has.  That kind of said to me that HE wants to leave the house to his kids.  If you don't think that is the case.. and that he would like to leave the home to you?  Then of course.. by all means.. have the conversation about putting things into place legally after you are married..  There are a bunch of different ways things could work out.. you have to actually know what he wants.. and if it aligns with what you want (to be able to stay in your home indeifinitely).. then a estate planner should be able to ensure things are locked down for that whether you inherit the home outright.. whether the home goes into a trust for your benefit..to be left to his kids at your death.. or goes to thembut you have lifetime rights.. etc...

From your original post.. it seemed that your DH had in his mind his kids getting the home and it's value when he dies.. so it appeared you two had a gap in what you wanted to happen... if you don't.. it's not that complicated really to get things worked out.. but if , in fact, his plans don't align with what you want.. then you have some serious discussions to make happen with him.

Just to be clear... I don't think his kids are automatically entitled to inherit his home.. but I don't think that you are necesssarily automatically entitled either.. and it's up to HIM to decide what he wants...And if there is a bit of a gap because he is unsure whether he wants to sign it over immediately.. not knowing the future.. then from that POV is where I made some suggestions that I thought might make him more comfortable.. like tying the length of your relationship to the amount of time you could remain in the home.. or the possibility of buying into the home with him.. and becoming a full equity partner in the asset.. and yes.. you would not pay rent too.. but a 50% share of the mortgage, insurance, taxes and other reno and repair upkeep for the home.. and then you would split the rest of your bills 50/50.. it might work out to more or less than you are paying now in rent etc.. but it would mean you are on equal footing with your investment in the home.. 

I'm really sorry, if my posting came from a place of misunderstanding.. but your orignal post above did give the impression that your BF intended to leave the home to his kids.. and even perhaps was not as "all in" on needing to be married.. though loves you and if that is what you want.. is going to do it. I'm not saying you are pressuring him... that he doesn't love you.. or that you necessarily have ulterior motives..but there seemed to be a gap in what he wants.. and what you expect.. so obviously.. you need to have a talk about it.. to find out where he really stands.. then you can make your decisions.

Rags's picture

As I understand it most states provide for a spouse to share in market growth in a home after the couples marries even if they new spouse has no historic share of ownership in the home.   Similar to market growth in an investment account that one spouse had prior to marriage.

I am not sure how it works entirely.

If I had brought significant resources to our marriage, I probably would have different thoughts on protecting finances. Since we had little when we married, what we have accumulated we have accumulated together since we married.

My perspective is certainly not inclusive of the experiences of so many who entered into subsequent marriages with resources.

I will adjust my perspective.  Thanks for the expanded perspective.

feels_like_karma's picture

...what if it's first for one person and second for the other? I don't anticipate us completely combining finances so we would still be financially independent. We just would have joint assets or joint expenses.

Rags's picture

This is my second marriage. It is my bride's only marriage.

Due to prior events, when we married we had two 8yo vehicles, two apartments of university student furniture,  my newly earned engineering BS, nad my first post university professional job.  So blending finances was easy. There really was nothing to blend.

My blended family experience is the Unicorn of blended family experiences and about as non-complex as it gets.

Our finances are completely blended and we are each the named beneficiary on each others investment accounts and life insurances.

There are of course no guarantees. But at 28yrs and counting, it is looking pretty good so far.

Good luck.

la_dulce_vida's picture

#1 Rule of wisdom for women - do not look to a man to provide for your support or future support. Work. Save your OWN retirement account. Make sure you can afford to support yourself if there isn't a man in your life.

#2 Never look to marrying an older man expecting that he's going to leave you assets he accumulated before he knew you. If you marry, your only expectation should be a share of what you built TOGETHER.

Specific to your situation, if he make substantially more than you, why are you paying nearly 1/2 of his mortgage? Living expenses should be divide proportionally to how much of the household income you bring in. If the total household income is 100k, and he earns 80k but you only earn 20k, then the housing expenses are split 80/20. Bills for groceries and utilities are split based on the number of people in the house. If a woman and her child live with a man, the woman pays 2/3 of the groceries and utilities while the man pays 1/3.

You say you have nothing for your partner to inherit if you die, but if he dies while married to you, you would expect him to leave you the house. Yeah, no. The least he can do for you is write it into his will that you are allowed to live in the house for 5, 10, 15, 20 years or until you decide to move out. The will can require you to pay a reasonable rent, but you should not be responsible for the maintenance or taxes for a property someone else will inherit.

My partner and I are contemplating marriage. He is 7 years older than me and already retired. He and his late wife accumulated all the assets he has which he'd like to see go to his adult daughter when he dies. He owns 2 houses and we live in one of them.

I have my own nest egg designed to support JUST ME in my golden years, but anything left over will go to my 3 kids. I also own two houses.

My partner and I are agreed that there will be a prenup. And anything we have up until the day we marry is our own individual asset. Anything we accumulate or build AFTER we marry will be a joint asset (excluding any appreciated value on our real estate or any growth in our respective individual investments).

He knows that I would like him to update his will to allow me to remain in our home (his house) for as long as I want/need to if he were to die. The other option we've discussed is me buying into the house so that it's 1/2 mine and I have legal standing after his death. I don't think his daughter will try to push me out, but I do think well meaning relatives might urge her to do it to protect her inheritance.

But, as someone with assets who has worked hard to have them, and has been USED financially by a former spouse and stepchildren, I can tell you that I guard my assets and would look unfavorably at anyone who sought to capitalize on my financial security. I learned my lesson the hard way in my 2nd marriage.

It's your job to make sure you have enough to live on if your partner passes away. You should never seek to benefit financially from a marriage except when you build something together (where you BOTH contribute).

 

tfsimmons's picture

When posting on this site but not willing to listen to anyone taking their time and experience to reply to you... Your responses remind me of my StepDaughters.... Clueless!

justmakingthebest's picture

DH and I are both of the opinion that the surviving spouse get's everything. All property, all life insurance. Kids can have sentimental items, but that is about it. Our marriage was an agreement to take care of each other, that includes after death. 

Minor children would receive social security benefits and they have their other parent to care for their needs. Adult children are capable to caring for themselves. 

My SS22, who is special needs, would continue to be cared for by me if DH were to pass away 1st. 

What happens after that will change obviously as I age and if I were to remarry (unlikely since I would lose military benefits). 

If I were to pass first, DH has promised to be there for my bios and help as needed, but I expect them to be self sufficient. Their college is paid for and they have their father, so there should be little that they actually need. My life insurance and our property secures my spouses future. 

As unmarried partners, I wouldn't expect anything. Frankly, that is why that "piece of paper" is so important. It legally protects you. 

feels_like_karma's picture

Exactly. I expect nothing as unmarried partners. I would even sign a prenup saying I'm entitled to nothing of his in the event of a divorce. But death is completely different.

la_dulce_vida's picture

"I would even sign a prenup saying I'm entitled to nothing of his in the event of a divorce. But death is completely different."

This is the kind of statement you make but then bristle when people suggest you should not expect to be given a house or anything monetary except what you and your spouse build together.

If you were to at least qualify that you intend to contribute equally towards building savings or assets with your potential future spouse, the whole tone of your posts would change. If you're married to this guy for 5 years, I don't think you should expect anything more than him updating his will so that you have up to 5 years to move somewhere else. It would be nice if he felt like leaving you something, but I don't think you should expect it. I surely don't expect my partner of nearly 4 years to do that even if we were married for 10 years.

Merry's picture

Talking about long-term financial planning is not out of line, or greedy, or morbid. You both need a clear understanding of what you each want and need, individually, and together.

In a second marriage, it's common for assets (and debt) aquired prior to marriage to stay with each individual unless/until that partner combines it with marital assets. There is no way in hell I'd follow the "all in" approach of everything becoming joint upon marriage. In my case, my spouse came with debt and I came with assets, including inherited assets that will not be passed to anyone other than my kids. DH benefits from my inheritance in his lifetime, but he is in no way entitled to it should I pass first.

But that's not to say I don't want my spouse to have what he needs to continue to live comfortably. That can be accomplished through life insurance, trust, etc. Consult an estate attorney to see what works best for your circumstances in your state.

Maybe your partner sees the house as something he wants to leave to his kids because the downpayment and several years of mortgage payments predate you. I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as he provides some ability for you to continue to live comfortably. I personally wouldn't be too stuck on one approach (like keeping the house) over another (like an insurance payout). But you'll never know what's important to him and what he's thinking until you have a healthy discussion about it.

Might be time to check in with him again about his feelings toward marriage. That seems a logical first step.

la_dulce_vida's picture

All good advice, and at the same time, make sure you have your own retirement covered. Every woman needs to do that. Otherwise you invest 20 years in a marriage and the man doesn't leave you anything and you find yourself collecting social security and eyeing the cat's food.

CLove's picture

Wet sort of looks like pate.

I agree. I have 2 retirement accounts and a solid job, while husband is looking forward to figuring out how to make money while getting past retirement age. AND he has no savings, PLUS his boss is looking to retire the business...

la_dulce_vida's picture

Good for you. Does your husband expect to live off of your retirement savings?

In your situation, I would decide how much can be taken out of your retiremen account to leave you enough money to live on the rest of your life, and your husband can live off of his social security check and any side jobs he gets.

My last husband was only 2 years older than me. He had about 100K in his retirement account and took 2 withdrawals. When we split up, I think he was down around 50K. He's nearly 58. I know he saw me as his retirement plan. Not cool because I've put enough money away to support ME.

 

CLove's picture

He just expects to find a great job at the drop of a hat. Or fish full time...

Kaylee's picture

Merry's post above is nice and balanced, giving good advice. 

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual what he/she does with their estate. As someone said, DNA doesn't mean automatic inheritance.

OP, I hope you get to have a thorough discussion with your partner about all this, so you know where you both stand.

Good luck, and keep us updated!

2Tired4Drama's picture

DEBT. DEBT. DEBT!

Karma, you are focused on assets and what will happen to them if your DH dies before you do.  BUT...and it's an important but...you MUST get legal advice because AS HIS WIFE you will be on the hook for debt, too. 

If he winds up needing long-term or other expensive medical care, it will eat into his (and your) assets very, very quickly. Medicare rules are pretty strict about attaching assets and most states have additional requirements. Plus if the house is still mortgaged you will have to deal with that.  

Think about DEBTS and not just ASSETS!

Kcbrown35's picture

Sorry you got so many responses from people who didn't read what you wrote. All I can say is protect yourself. If I were in your shoes I would either (1) want a rental agreement (this gives you protection to not be kicked out immediately upon his death), or (2) something in his will stating you have a 6 month estate upon his death, or 1 year, or a life estate, etc. a lawyer could draft this for you and it's enforceable, or (3) change the title on the property to tenants in common (and you can do a percentage to give him a little more since he must have made down payment and the 5 years of payments), or (4) stop paying your share of the rent and save that so you have it in the event you need it. Since your not married yet and options 2 & 3 are more long term solutions, I weighed out for 1 or 4, and then once married or maybe after you hit 10 years together (or whatever makes sense for you guys), you can make a more permanent solution like 2 or 3.

2Tired4Drama's picture

I will reiterate what I've said previously:  If Karma wants to protect herself but wants to marry then she needs to think about more than his assets - she needs to think about potential DEBTS. The house is still mortgaged, he is quite a bit older and will probably need some form of expensive medical care, and SHE may very well wind up on the hook as the spouse.  In Minnesota, where she is from:

"One exception to the general rule is medical debts. In general, a spouse can be liable for the other spouse’s “necessary medical services.” (Minn. Stat. § 519.05). For many consumers, the first time they learn of the alleged debt is when they are contacted by a debt collector about their spouse’s debt. Or, they first learn of the debt when they are sued for their spouses’s debt."

 

Flustered's picture

Karma needs to see a lawyer. My DH and I had two houses both paid off. My BD is buying one of them from me/doesn't have more than three years payments to go. She is on the life estate for that meaning I could live there until I die and she will inherit it. My SD is on the life estate for this place with the stipulation that since neither she nor my BD want this house, once I'm gone, it Has to be sold within a year and the profits split. It is very clearly in our wills. What  we had before marriage we kept. We put together a bill account and a savings account, joint. Anything we put together during marriage like the two bank accounts or 50-50 split. ( over 24 years together, 23 married) Anything I get from the day he died is now mine. We made sure everything is POD or a beneficiary. It keeps it out of probate.

Since karma is not married, The rules of intestacy are not going to give her a penny unless she's in a community property state where they recognize being together for a certain amount of time equals Marriage. Without a will, when someone dies you're under intestacy. Every state has its own rules for that. That means see a lawyer. Find out rules.

As to paying the Debts? If there is a will,  the executor hast to do that. The executor does not have to be a spouse it could be a child. I don't know the conditions for an unmarried couple under intestacy; in my state I don't think she would get a penny. Karma, you need to see a lawyer. If you don't, down the line you may have problems/you may have his kids saying you ran up the bills and asking you to pay them while They just want to have the money. No matter what happens, in a second marriage or relationship where there are children from the first one involved? It's not pretty.

 

FWIW, this doesn't only happen with step kids /  it happens with biological ones.A friend recently had her MIL pass and the FIL & MIL Had written wills long ago. The FIL passed quite a while back and the MIL was in a nursing home. There was supposed to be LTC insurance for the nursing home.The one son who never left home took all of their money ( He was power of attorney and had a life estate on the house)  and spent it and hadn't paid taxes for years on the house. Come to find out he also didn't pay the LTC insurance for his mother. Needless to say, he already owned the house and she was on Medicaid. No assets. There were lots of bills and the lawyers all came after the MIL's biological children including my friends husband. Since the one son had signed Mom into the nursing home and she had dementia,  the new Will giving her assets to the one son was found to be questionable. The other two children could have gotten 1/3 each of the estate -- but if they had chosen to do that, they would have owed 1/3 of very large bills. They opted out of the estate. Before they got a lawyer and found out they could opt out? The brother who had been spending money like water had tried to get them to just put him on the estate as executor and to go onto the estate as people who were benefiting and who would help pay the bills. Oh no! Not happening! At least in my state if you take on being a beneficiary in your parents estate? You also get the bills. This is why you really need to see a lawyer