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Boundaries

koopertja's picture

Hi all,

I am glad I found this forum and hope to get some perspective. When I first met my boyfriend, he told me he had two girls (now 13 and 16) and he is separated. Long story short, after going out for over 18 months now, I realised:

- He is still paying everything for his wife (at the time we met they had been separated for over 5 years but she never worked nor has an interest to, he also pays her to study full time (they are both 45). After pushing he now finally initiated unilateral divorce. But he still keeps paying.

- The kids are dependant on each other and stuck in happy families. They have been celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Easter all a happy family, despite the separation. They all live 5 minutes away from each other. Since I am on the scene, they no longer get together as a happy family on Christmas etc. but on birthdays, I am not invited/allowed to go. He says it upsets the girls but where I stand, it upsets his ex who feels awkward if I would be there.

- He lives for his kids and they rule his life, literally rule his life. Our relationship is or I am never a priority. 

- He has no capacity because he is so busy serving his children which he has 50% of the time that the relationship is basically non-existent. We don't live together so it's kind of week on, week off. When he hasn't got the kids, we are much better. But, I don't want a part-time relationship. 

- He hates talking about any of it and makes me feel rubbish when I start bringing this stuff up. It's all about his kids. But he doesn't see how the ex manipulates them to keep me out.

I have been going back and forward in this relationship. Trying hard, harder, or let go. But I am stuck and just can't see how it goes anywhere if he doesn't stand up for me and the relationship and keeps the girls and himself be caught in the old life.

I don't have kids, nor do I want any. I am 38, so a bit younger. I have failed to establish boundaries in the beginning of the relationship.  I think mainly because I didn't know what to expect given I don't have kids myself. But it has come to the point where I keep wondering, will he ever move on? I know and trust him that he would 100% not get involved with the ex, he literally does do all of it to keep the kids happy, but here's the catch, it upsets me, over and over again and he knows it, yet does nothing about it.

I have suggested having our own birthday parties with the girls, but they obviously don't want me there if they can have a cry and the ex rocks up and all play happy family. I think logically he gets my points but he's just somehow frozen and can't do anything about it.

I feel like breaking up because I don't know what else I can do. There was a lot of talking, we do couples counselling but all keeps going back to him not actively supporting the blended family but trying to keep everyone happy (but mostly not me as a result).

What are your thoughts? Stay or go?

koopertja's picture

We had only two sessions yet, the objective was to communicate better, not talked about blending the family. But the counsellor worked out that he's got no capacity to deal with anything. She actually asked him what he has to give to the relationship. That hurt, but kind of confirmed my gut feel, get out, I have been hanging in there way too long, waiting for a bus that probably never comes.

I have raised with him, that his ex and he prevent the kids from forming any sort of relationship with me. He's got no balls, that's the issue. I worried he loses his kids if he doesn't do what they want.

Cover1W's picture

He'll never lose them because he will always do what they want. Forever. Think about forever.

Go and take care of yourself.

JRI's picture

I think you know this isn't the kind of rekationship you want and I don't blame you.  Your counselor sounds insightful.   If the advice of an internet stranger is worth anything, I'd say let him go.  I'm glad you don't live with him, that makes it easier.  

The kids are 13 and 16 now but when they're older, they'll have kids which will perpetuate the "happy family" scenario.  I hope you're not around for all that.

Good luck.

koopertja's picture

Thank you for your response. Initially I never even considered dating someone with kids, but then I thought, I could handle it. And I think I could if he as a partner was stronger and would stand behind me. But, he just is a slave of his past, guilt-ridden with no happiness in his own life. I was going to leave many times, but it's hard because there is that week where things are good. But, is that just under 50% enough? And you are right, it will keep going. I don't think those kids will ever adjust to me because they have not been taught respect, values, empathy etc. They have been raised to be entitled and self-centred. That si on top of the issues with the boyfriend, dealing with that.

JRI's picture

If I'd had no kids, I don't know if I would have stayed with DH.  His 3 kids were aggressive and unruly.  Then there was BM, a witch.  But, I had 2 kids of my own and they weren't perfect, either.  So it felt more balanced than what you are experiencing - I put up with his and he was a good father figure to mine, he did better than I with the step situation.  As it was, we had about a year of some "happy family" culminating with him going to her house Christmas morning so he'd be there when the kids opened their gifts.  What a miserable period that was.   We had a rough first 4 years but then, as a last ditch effort before leaving, I went to counseling which helped immensely.  My point in all this is that I dont think I would have stuck it out if I hadn't had 2 kids who were benefitting.

 

koopertja's picture

Thanks for your honesty, and I get your view. As for me, what is the benefit? He loves me, I love him, but there's no such thing as one single love, especially not if you are open minded and hearted which I am. I more often just feel abandoned and alone, whereas when I was single I didn't feel like that. But there is that component of the first years being hard before it gets better, but I just don't know if it will get better. I guess that is the worst, there is no guarantee, I am either preventing myself from having the relationship I want or I put in hard yards hoping to eventually build something close enough to what I want.

GrudgingSM's picture

FWIW, even the guilty dad I'm with who has done therapy to try and improve boundaries sucks at them and our relationship just inches along. I see that he's trying and there's minor progress sometimes, but mostly watching him be a doormat to his first family is frustrating. I think the only reason it works for me is that I have my own kid and detach from his, make my own weekend and holiday plans because he keeps revolving around his ex. I'm not giving up my comfort, safety, and happiness for his failed first family. If I was built a little different there's no way this would work, and still, even with as much as I love the man, I wish I'd cut and run earlier.

koopertja's picture

Thank you, I feel exactly like you. But I guess, I am single, and while I don't have kids, I have the most beautiful dog Smile I was happy on my own I guess and always wanted a relationship that adds value, but this just seems to suck the life out of me. But thanks for your comment as it reminds me that I should still look out for myself. It's just, in the end, you live two different lives and the question is, is that enough? My boyfriend is also the doormat, I said that to him too, a few times. It's heartbreaking because you/we care, probably more than anyone else involved. I guess the question is, are you happy or are you just staying because out of fear to not find someone else, or other fears/reasons? I am financially independent too, so I literally don't need his money or him being a doormat, I need an equal partner.

GrudgingSM's picture

I really appreciate how developed and engaged your responses are! Many posters don't respond, and it's lovely that when you do you're really considering the person behind the post. 
 

im financially independent too. Better off than him, actually. I stay because it's still the best love I've ever known with the most equal partner I've ever had. And when I ask myself whether I want to give up sometimes Because it's hard or does the urge to give up happen because the relationship doesn't serve me, the small still voice in me says this is hard but I'm growing/learning/changing and served by this love, even if it's not ideal. Maybe that voice is a complete idiot, but I keep my boundaries firm so my heart can be safe. Still, love doesn't seem worth it many days. 

koopertja's picture

I think we are quite similar. I have this view that only a few couples, and probably most likely not the ones that were married with kids etc. before having this kind of love that is more easy and simplistic. And I like your point about growing and learning, I often think of that too. I guess the challenge is here, if you are the only one growing and learning, increases the gap between two parties even more. I guess time will tell. I mean, it's good he does the counselling but he's mainly just attending, not so much taking action. I have started now to not make much effort anyone with kids etc and keep life a bit separate too. But yeah, is that serving me long term? It kind of works now I guess. I haven't set those boundaries and I think now paying the price for that as it's hard to enforce now as to why something is a no go for me. I doubt he will ever step up to the ex, so I will have to love with it, or leave. It just feels shit being always number 2 or in this case number 3 and in some other cases when he has work stress even number 4. Sigh.

GrudgingSM's picture

Damn you are good. Yes, it sucks to be with the one growing and changing more. He has thanked me in the past for the emotional labor I do for our relationship, but the asymmetry sucks. 
 

and our biggest struggle has totally been the lack of priority thing. So often he conflates his ex's feelings with "what the kids need". Of course I'm fine with the kids being a priority, but he HAS to work on understanding what is a kid's NEED vs what his ex wants/prefers. My very firm and final boundary is that if he puts his ex wife before me, I'm seriously done. I don't need to be some happy, blended, do-over family that looks like the Brady Bunch, but I'm not coming second to an ex wife who said she didn't even love you. Nope nope nope.

And I think that's another one of those lines for me--what's a preference and what's  a need for me. My needs must be met. Full stop. Preferences are negotiable. And the being a priority thing is my biggest need since I take care of most of my other ones. Especially since we aren't a financial or domestic unit--we are a romantic one. And I expect that to matter.

koopertja's picture

It really sounds we are in the same boat, only that mine isn't a father figure to a kid, since I haven't got one. This one "My very firm and final boundary is that if he puts his ex wife before me, I'm seriously done." I have tried and haven't pulled through. Like last time the 13 year old spit the dummy, I said, this cannot happen again, but it did. And that he did try and actually do the right thing and then pulled back makes it worse. He shows the ex and kids that I am optional and not a priority. And that doesn't only hurt it actually makes me angry with myself. Like, why am I putting up with such sub-standard behaviour from someone that supposedly loves me and wants to spend their life with me.

We do have the week on/off thing and sometimes I do go out (it's like 35km one way drive in horrendous traffic mostly) but it's kind of I need to get invited, I don't feel I can just turn up based on whatever issues the girls may have and trust me they have a lot. I think I will tell him, I won't come out there at all anymore when he has them. If he wants a life together and blend family I need to see him take the right actions to do that. Like front-foot things like birthday, not the day before, and then say, well, I talked to her, she cried, and now I am going even though it f****s you off. I mean, how many times do you tell someone their actions hurt you and they literally do nothing.

I think I want to break up but somehow trying to investigate every avenue to make sure I have no regrets. So counselling is one thing, then I also said I won't go out there anymore unless the place is safe for my dog (like no food, shoes, socks on floor everywhere). So that worked at least once, doubt he will follow through.

And, in earlier days I offered, we can have two lives but it means I won't fully commit and if someone better comes along I am gone. He didn't want that. Yet, remembering this now, he is the one enforcing the second lives drama with his actions or lack of actions.

GrudgingSM's picture

My Kiwi twin! I totally agree with everything you're saying. And sometimes I get insecure about my own boundaries and struggle to enforce them. The question that helped me decide to divorce my first husband was "is this a bad patch or is it a bad life?" And it was clear and I still have no regrets. That was a bad life. I haven't been able to have the same clarity with my current relationship so I'm not ready to go, but all these things you're saying have been voices in my head. And yeah, when my DH'S kids are around I leave. IM not wanted and not going to let myself be treated like that or be in those high tension situations. My DH lacks the spine to blend, so I live my own life most of the time. It's more like dating than marriage, which hurts sometimes, and honestly sometimes I love it. I don't enjoy his kids so it spares me the energy and fake smiles of pretending I do. I think we are doing. The best we can do, but that doesn't mean there's not a better deal put there. I Guess That's the question before us.

koopertja's picture

Yes! I am not sure being glad someone is in the same kind of hopeless situation is good but a sorrow shared is a sorrow halved. And I have justified myself the freedom I have too. I think I want a different relationship, one that he will never be able to live up to, so I can leave and hope for better or do what you do, just live my life. Essentially that makes us friends with benefits though, not so much a real relationship.

And yes, my boyfriend also doesn't have the spine, wants to keep all happy, just not so much me. Maybe I should just focus more on myself again, see where it goes.

GrudgingSM's picture

I am glad you're making the right choice for you! And I've genuinely enjoyed this exchange. You are thoughtful and insightful, and even though we're just anonymous strangers on the internet, this has been one of my favorite conversations on this board. I hope you find someone who makes you a priority and brings you lots of love and laughter and good things!

koopertja's picture

Thank you, I truly hope you find your way too. Life is a journey and what's right today and suits us may no longer fit the bill in time to come. I see it like that, life is a bunch of phases, good or bad. Feel free to keep me posted or reach out any time, I do think there is a messaging function on here. Take care of yourself and stay happy! And, most importantly, keep growing Smile

notsurehowtodeal's picture

This man is not ready for a relationship. He is still financially supporting his wife and it sounds like they play "happy family" a good deal of the time. If he really wanted to be divorced, he would have started the proceedings sometime within the last 5  years.

Break it off for now and tell him to give you a call when the divorce is final and he is completely free to move forward with you. If his is really the right one, the wait will be worth it.

koopertja's picture

Thank you for your honest response. Yes, I also wonder whether he is ready, and you are probably right, he's not. He said divorce just wasn't a priority as he didn't date anyone seriously all this time and the financial separation is difficult as he owns his own company and he would need to buy her out of that, and the family home which she lives in while he pays a ridiculous amount of rent himself. So he has slowly progressed things but I feel it's more like to not lose me and keep me at least somehow sticking around by just doing the bare minimum. 

The birthday example, he did talk to the 16 year old and said he wasn't going to come, but then she cried and he got sucked in, says didn't want to miss out on her 16th, but it's "just" a birthday. I asked, why couldn't I just go (not that I want to, it's the principle that I think we just do our own celebration for her) and he says the kid would feel uncomfortable. But it's the ex that manipulates them, she probably said something but about him not going because of me etc. but he gets sucked in and the thing is, I can't see him making that change because those kids just rule him, I think it's guilt. He left the marriage and I actually wonder how many years he took to make that call as with us, nothing ever moves. We argue I tell him how I feel, we talk, but there are never any solutions or way forward. It just stays the same. And he always says, it's complicated, he doesn't want to lose his girls etc. But the reality is, they have a stronger bond with the BM anyway, soon they will be doing their own thing. But yeah, comes back to not being ready I guess. Because if he was, he would make those sacrifices and bite that bullet to get us into a proper relationship, for the sake of the kids. He doesn't get that what our relationship models to his kids is not healthy either and that he actually has a chance to show them how it should be, but he's stuck. Yeah, maybe I just need to say, it's not the kind of relationship I want because he's not fully in it, and then just move on.

notsurehowtodeal's picture

You deserve a man who is ready to make you a priority in his life - and I don't think this one is there yet. Even if he gets a divorce, you are going to have problems with his girls. Read around this site and you will have a better understanding of the problems kids can cause in a relationship when they are parented by a Dad who feels guilty.

And if he gets a divorce mainly because you are pushing him to do it, then he might also harbor some resentment towards you if his kids give him grief about about the divorce. You seem to be looking at this situation from a pretty realistic standpoint - and I agree with you - he is not fully into the relationship with you.

koopertja's picture

Thank you, and yes, I have said that to him too, he needs to do those things because he wants to do it for himself, not for me, not for the relationship. I guess I know where I stand, but you know, it's not that easy to set yourself free.

shamds's picture

And when they finally contacted my hubby, we were married 3.5 yrs with 2 young kids. The eldest sd was 21 and told hubby bio mum said he could meet them in her husbands home (you know, the affair guy bio mum had whilst married to hubby before they separated). 
apparently my husband was expected to ditch me and our 2 kids who were 1 & 2 and rock up to their home and play happy family with their stepdads 2 kids from his exwife he left to marry bio mum.

my husband was very uncomfortable with this expectation and firmly ignored any of these requests. Since sd's claimed bio mum was a changed woman and no longer batshit crazy, hubby requesting  to meet sd's at a restaurant nearby to their home couldn't be rejected by bio mum or stepdad or they were still doing the resentful bs

sd's live in a home my husband bought for them after the divorce. Stepdad and bio mum kicked them out asap after the wedding but they sing bio mum and stepdad praises. It's disgusting

koopertja's picture

That sounds crazy - but good that your husband stood by you. I have been raised very differently, or maybe it is a generation thing with those kids and parents too. 

koopertja's picture

Thank you, I also feel that is true and while emotions may not be love or romantic, they are guilt which is probably worse.

Kaylee's picture

You are making a lot of effort while your man is making absolutely NONE.

Find a man who is actually available to you.

koopertja's picture

Thank you, this is true. I have scaled back now and I am trying to slowly phase myself out.

simifan's picture

This is not dating a man with kids. This man is still married and has no business being in a relationship. Not sure how you managed to wade through 18 months with all these red flags.

Find someone who will make you not the "Ex" the priority in his life. & Next time you find an SO wants to go to the Ex's for a visit or pays for something not court ordered or handed directly to his children - Run. 

koopertja's picture

Thank you. Yeah, the red flags, I saw them early on but I listened to his excuses, that he is busy with his business, it's never been a priority, he's annoyed paying for her but what can he do if she doesn't work, he hasn't been serious with anyone so was just no reason to get divorced etc. But now, having listened to this over and over it also starts to sink in that he isn't really ready to have a relationship and create a new family. He wants to just keep the peace and me to fit in, without taking my feelings and needs into account. I mean, he does try, but some people try all their life and never get anywhere. And that is him. He did talk to the kid, he tried, but he didn't pull through. And that is always like that. He also doesn't parent them, he just doesn't have the capacity and wants to keep everyone happy. He is driven by guilt and fear of losing them telling them like to clean up etc is all a big deal. I am very different, I get stuff done, I talk to people around me, I am open minded and hearted and don't hang on to some ideals of the past or wherever they may come from. But yes, you are right, and I said that to him too, he should have never dated me knowing the mess he is still in.

Rags's picture

I do not usually advise acting on feelings. I won't advise this in your situation.  I will advise that you deep dive into the situations that are building  your feelings of wanting to break up.  Act on those.  

This lets you break up on the outcome of an analytical process rather than on feelings.  You will likely not have the regrets and guilt that feeling based actions cause.  

He expects you to be his beck and call girl, integrate into his life, accept his child centric spawn worshipping bullshit and has zero interest in being YOUR equity life partner.

Do not sacrifice your life and future on the alter of SParental martyrdom to this failed man, failed father, failed husband and abject failure as your equity life partner and his shallow and polluted gene pool.  Any partner who does not make you and the relationship that they have with your their priority over all else, including failed family progeny or even children you create together, is not a good choice.  

Take care of you, value yourself. This guy won't value you.  He has his objects of worship.  You will be little more than an additional revenue stream for him to vector to his X and their spawn.

 

koopertja's picture

I truly appreciate your comment and I have realised many of these points before. I guess the red flags were there from the beginning but I fell in love before I started getting caught up in those said situations. Then, as the situations arose, I tried to justify my feelings by trying to be understanding, not exactly having the norm to go off, and hoping with time it will get easier because he is doing the work. But he doesn't. And you are right, I will always just be that additional revenue stream, in essence, I think half of the time I am more the cause of drama in his eyes because I make demands, complain and want to sort things out - and he hates and can't deal with conflict. Reading all those posts and my own, I know what I need to do, for myself, and my life.

koopertja's picture

I have been de-prioritised again. He was supposed to come for ice cream to mine with kids and instead they talked him into ice cream elsewhere and then he was like, ok, we can stop by really quick but that's it. I now made the next step and said there are two options: Break up for good or he takes a set timeframe that we agree on and sorts himself out and then if something is left we can see if it's enough to try again. I gave him until the end of the week to come back with a decision. 

hereiam's picture

He needs more than time, he needs to move on, emotionally, and he hasn't. He may have been separated for over 5 years, but what does that really mean when he has been supporting her and spending holidays with her?

He also lets his kids rule his life and I really doubt that is going to change. Probably best to just let him be single and dote on his kids (and the ex).

You shouldn't have to settle for crumbs.

Winterglow's picture

Giving him a timeframe to sort himself out would only be prolonging the agony. He can't sort himself out because he doesn't know how and even if he did, he doesn't want to. Do yourself a favour, dump him and take your life back.

This one's a dud.