Phone Calls
I am at a loss for how to handle phone calls with SS anymore. Since we are long distance, we FaceTime SS at BM's twice per week, usually on Thursdays and Sundays. They aren't scheduled calls - DH texts BM on those days and asked for good time usually in the evening. At that time he FaceTimes SS on BM's phone. Usually, SS is in the kitchen or living room, no more than 5 feet from BM at any given time. It is evident BM (and GF) are listening to every single call.
When SS is with us, BM generally follows the same Thursday/Sunday FaceTime schedule and texts DH to determine a good time. Every single time SS answers that call, no matter what we are doing, SS runs up to his room and shuts the door to talk to BM and GF. I wouldn't have an issue with this, but BM is notorious for making allegations and SS always seems to change from Jekyll to Hyde when around BM, so I feel it is important to know what the conversation is. When we have asked SS to stay in the living room or kitchen for his calls with BM, he gets upset and BM later emails DH, berating him for trying to eavesdrop, stating that it makes SS uncomfortable, and that it violates the CO since BM and SS have the right to privacy (which the CO doesn't state). You can tell SS is conflicted when we ask him to stay in in the general vacinity for his calls and then his whole demeanor changes after the call.
My issue is, tonight, SS ran upstairs to take the call. I then went into my room, because I can hear everything through the wall, and SS was making fun of us to BM and telling BM and GF every detail of the whole week. For example, we don't generally allow SS to wear athletic wear 24/7. We believe that there is a time and place for nicer clothes and you have to have a mix. SS mocked to BM and GF tonight, showing them his one pair of basketball shorts saying "the first and only pair I'll ever have here because CastleJJ won't let me wear them." Umm no. I'm the one who bought them for you and I told you we would buy more come spring. I have given up the clothing war with SS; if he wants to wear that crap and look that way all the time, so be it. SS was also going over the Christmas gifts he got and he told GF about an Xbox game we bought for him. We could not find this game as it was sold out for weeks. We finally found it, but it was optimized for our Xbox, not the older one BM and GF have, so SS can't use it on their device. We bought it because it was that or nothing. SS told GF that and GF went on like "Ohhh they got it like that so you can't take it home." SS then went on to tell BM our work schedules this week, that he is irritated that he has to wait 6 months for our family vacation, etc. No good deed goes unpunished with these 3.
I don't trust SS to talk to BM alone. I feel like he lies and mocks us to make BM happy and those lies then lead BM to accuse us of stuff. I feel like SS should have to stay in the general vacinity during these calls, not hide in his room for secrecy and privacy, but I also know forcing that will cause SS to alienate and cause BM to accuse us further of eavesdropping despite the fact that her and GF do it for literally every single call. I feel like if we try to stop it, we are helping BM with her PAS tactics. It's a lose lose either way for us.
I'm at a loss.
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Horrid
Having a little spy in your midst! I would be tempted to bug the room then play back his little recon sessions... then deny it completely when the BM inquisition starts. Let SS feel what it is like to be lied to. He's now old enough to bear some responsibility despite the brainwashing by BM. Sad to say no matter what you or DH does, this kid is well on his way to being completely PASed out. Might as well let him know that you're on to him.
I completely agree with this.
^^^^ I completely agree with this. He's old enough to learn that his words (he is separate from BM despite what she may have him think) hold weight and he's responsible for what comes out of his mouth.
I thought about putting our
I thought about putting our baby monitor in his room under the bed and recording his conversations via that.
I just feel like we are in a lose lose. If we call SS on it, we are alienating him from us further, helping BM. If we allow it to continue, we are also helping BM with her PAS. Ugh this sucks.
Truth be told
He has already been alienated and now is complicit in it. Draw a line in the sand. 99% of the time there is no fighting the PAS anyway so you might as well let him know you are aware of his 007 routine.
I used to let the three ferals know (out of earshot of Chef as at the time he did NOT have my back) that I was on to them. Their eyes got as wide as saucers that here was an adult that was aware of their BS. Of course they did not like that fact so the older two voluntarily stopped coming to visitation after the conspired with the Gir to lie to CPS.
Its now a matter of self preservation.
The youngest one literally defecated all over the house on purpose when he didn't get his way.
Maybe force him to stay in
Maybe force him to stay in the room and if BM claims she has a right to privacy in the CO- tell her to show you where it's written? Ultimately you have a right to determine what takes place in your home and what you're comfortable with, where calls are made, etc. I might even call SS out "I overheard your conversation (thin walls kid) and what you said about us is downright disrespectful." Sure he and BM might get pissed... and? What's the worst that can happen he comes to your house even less?
All that said- it's a shifty situation. BM sounds like she's creating a real monster with this kid.
I think for DH it is a fear
I think for DH it is a fear of SS coming less. SS is only 10, so it isn't like we are even in the teen years yet. DH is worried that if we push SS too hard, he won't want to come anymore. DH says he has accepted that possibility, but allowing this type of stuff to continue proves otherwise. He is scared to lose SS so he doesn't push.
I get that- my DH is similar
I get that- my DH is similar in that regard. That said- he can't be afraid to parent. Otherwise he's not doing SS any favors. If SS chooses not to come because you've done the right thing by showing him his actions are inappropriate/wrong then that's SS's loss. At this point can he even refuse to come? I think you should absolutely record the conversations so if it comes into court you have proof as to why you feel you need to monitor the discussion. I hate to say it but it sounds like he's on track to not come regardless of what you do so you might as well do the right thing IMO... if it's a FaceTime call- you now have proof of BM and PAS so I wonder if that could even help you?
DH disciplines when SS is
DH disciplines when SS is with us. DH has grounded him, disciplined him, upheld rules and boundaries. This was the one grey area that we are both struggling with.
We both know SS will likely PAS out and not continue to visit at some point. Frankly, I'm ready for that now, but I know DH isn't.
So first of all, I completely
So first of all, I completely understand how infuriating this is. Believe me! I used to get incredibly worked up over the lies my SDs would tell BM about us. I would cry over it, H would try to intervene, and the kids would just dig their heels in and flat out deny that they said things that we KNEW they said.
I really can't tell you what flipped the switch for me, but at some point I just stopped caring. It makes sense - there is literally no other person in the world whose opinion is more meaningless than BM's. She's an idiot of epic proportions. So why would I care if she thought I purposely didn't do OSD's laundry so she would have to wear something she didn't like? Once I realized that unless they were lying about stuff that was actually dangerous to my household (which they never did), I should make it my business to NOT ever find out what they were saying, my life was infinitely more peaceful.
The best advice I can give you is to disengage from SS's phone conversations AND from any subsequent complaints from BM if he tells her something crazy. Your DH needs to field those complaints and shield you from them because they hurt your feelings and you deserve better.
Also, I think it's worth noting that my OSD is 19 now and has been doing a lot of work in therapy and she has apologized to me several times for how she spoke about me behind my back. The reasons why she did are complex, and I know not every PAS'd kid has an epiphany when they reach adulthood, but there is always hope!
See, DH and I used to let SS
See, DH and I used to let SS have his calls, not caring what was said... UNTIL, BM accused us of physical abuse with very graphic details and threatened CPS and further court action. She claimed that all information came from the mouth of SS and some of the details she shared pertaining to the layout of our house and various items in our house prove that to be true. It was a long fight to disprove those allegations and we had to put cameras up in our house for a long period of time.
Since then, DH or I have tried to ensure we are aware of what is being discussed during those calls for our own protection. The petty remarks and snide comments are just icing on the cake. It's the real allegations we are worried about.
Again
10 yrs old is old enough to know what a lie is and how it can get someone in trouble. Perhaps show tv/ movies with a theme of how lying can backfire (Peter and the wolf). Your SS fancies himself with adult status without the accompanying responsibilities. No doubt he perceives himself as quite advanced and "mature." This is common with HCGUBMs viewing their child(ren) as spouse like confidants.
Not sure if you can also present PAS material to SS (Welcome back Pluto) etc.
Those "petty remarks" often snowball into serious stuff. Hopefully your cameras are still in place and working.
Ah, I see. The abuse
Ah, I see. The abuse allegations are another thing altogether. Have y'all directly confronted SS about lies he told in the past? I agree that he's plenty old enough to understand that there are consequences for lying and one of those consequences is that you lose certain privileges and people don't trust you.
Yes. This happened a few
Yes. This happened a few years ago. SS was 8. When BM emailed DH with the allegations, we recommended that all 4 adults and SS have a sit down to discuss the situation. DH suspected that SS didn't actually say anything to BM, but that BM used generalized information that she knew about us plus some unrelated, generic day to day information SS would share, to concoct the allegations. As suspected, BM refused to a sit down, stating that she felt SS would feel ganged up on. She refused to talk to DH about it further, telling him to fix it with SS and that basically if it happened again, she would involve CPS and the courts. In reality, I don't think SS said anything and I don't think BM wanted to admit to lying in front of DH and SS.
DH and I sat SS down (secretly audio recording the conversation) after the allegations and it was almost like deer in headlights. You could tell he had never heard about any of this in his life. We started vague and it was clear he knew nothing and then we got more detailed - still nothing. We had a conversation about lying and how lies can significantly impact people. We put cameras up in the main living areas after that. Once BM found out there were cameras, she never made an allegation again.
From now on have DH listen in
From now on have DH listen in on those conversations, after all it's his kid and his responsibility to shield you and BD from the toxin of his past mistake with BM. Sadly kids lie and kids like this love to lie and mock the other parent especially when they know they will be rewarded for this behavior. Spawn was like this, she would go in her room shut the door and talk so much crap about DH and me. She would report to Meth Mouth any time we took one of our kids to do something, or if we got anything new for the house and would snap pictures and send it to her. She used to film me while I was exercising and share it with Meth Mouth and they would make fun of me. Not much I could do since Spawn lived with us full time, I just told DH it was his responsibility to sit on her about doing things like this since it was an invasion of my privacy and that of my children. Be thankful he's only there so little you don't have to worry about it daily.
" It is evident BM (and GF)
" It is evident BM (and GF) are listening to every single call."
Next time SS is on a call to your DH, encourage him to give some useful nugget of information with "Hey, BM, I thought you'd like to know ..." Let her know that neither of you are stupid enough to believe she doesn't listen in.
Oh, a few months ago, during
Oh, a few months ago, during a call, DH asked SS a question and BM didn't even let SS answer. She responded directly to DH for SS. It was a dumb question too like "How's the weather?" DH turned around and said "Last I checked, I called to talk to SS, not to you (BM)." She almost remained quiet for the remainder of the call, starting to pipe in a few more times before catching herself.
That's the thing, we know BM is listening and BM knows we know. She is just narc enough to not care. Again, SS is HER property so she has full entitlement to whatever that relates to SS. In her brain, she is 1000% entitled to every detail of our conversations, to every dime of DH's money to support SS, to control every second of every day of our visitation and set rules here.
That would drive me nuts.
That would drive me nuts.
It does drive me nuts! How do
It does drive me nuts! How do you beat a narc who doesn't care because she feels entitled and is ALWAYS right? You just learn to minimize contact and involvement as much as possible, but it doesn't FIX the issue. It just puts a bandaid on it.
The last few times DH tried
The last few times DH tried to speak with PASd OSD on the phone BM was listening in. He only knew once BM started interjecting, like yours. She also fed into OSDs mood or attitude and escalated things. Clear PAS
Not Sure What I'd Do
Probably could not contain myself and I'd say something to him in front of his dad. Like, I was passing your room and caught a few words about ME so I stopped and listened....would you care to elaborate on the rest of the conversation of what I did NOT hear about me?? Give him a quick minute, walk off and never address it again...but he'd know I know.
Then I'd reinforce my protection. Cameras, no more private phone calls (take it in the kitchen) and no more being alone with your SS. Way too much at risk here. He's 10 but as someone already said, he's completely PAS'd and playing the game well. Do not trust this kid with yourself or your child.
Not Sure What I'd Do
Duplicate
Next call to SS when he is with his BM, DH needs to demand that
he go to his room so DH can have a private conversation without BM and GF eavesdropping.
See how they all respond to that. DH needs to point out that their double standard will no longer be tolerated because.... BM and GF are making SS uncomfortable when he is with his father because they force him to sneak around and hide the those conversations from his father.
Tolerate no bullshit, and rip out their throats. Figuratively of course.