PAS
Any of you out there dealing with PAS? If so how do you handle it? My BF and I are going through this with his two kids and its heartbreaking to watch. He was suppose to have the kids Friday so he went and picked them up and took SS5 to his softball game. BM showed up to the game and at the end of the game both SS5 and SD3 wanted to leave with BM. SS5 told BM in front of BF that he didnt want to go with BF he wanted to go with her because he hates his dad/our house. So needless to say he let the kids go with BM and she said she would drop the kids of Saturday monring. She never did so there goes his weekend with the kids. His custody order says he gets 1,3,5 weekend of the month and every Wednesday. So as you can see he doesnt have a lot of time with them. Any suggestions?
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Its so sad isnt it. I am
Its so sad isnt it. I am divorced and LOVE the fact that my BD6 gets to spend time with her dad and even looks forward to it ... then again I am normal and would never want my child to hate her father. As far as the bad mouthing me goes. I have a plan for that. If their mother wants to reward them for it thats great. Not before you stand at the sink with soap in your mouth for 5 minutes though so enjoy!!!! LOL. Sorry to hear that thats what your SKIDS do
The first step is to stop
The first step is to stop letting the kids choose. He needs to take his court-ordered time even if kids are upset. They'll get over it.
"That's how women are, aren't they? We want to know that others have been where we've been, who understand our fragile places, and who see our sunsets in the same shades of blue" - Beth Moore
I agree. He said the only
I agree. He said the only reason he let it happen is because they were at a baseball game and the kids where screaming and BM kept asking them if they wanted to go and when he tried to put them in the car she kept talking to them so he walked away. He told her that she is not to show up to anymore of the games unless the games fall during her visitation so she looked at SS5 and said if you dont go with daddy them mommy wont be able to come to your games anymore. Yea thats right its the 5 year olds fault not yours!!! She does this sometimes. She knows that it causes issues so she shows up and random places because she knows the kids will whine and scream to go see her and then they will want to leave with her. The angry side of me thinks you know what BM if you are so set to do this on your own then do it and you can answer to the kids when they want to know why they dont get to see their dad.
Oh yes, the public venue to
Oh yes, the public venue to show the world that daddy sucks and his own kids don't want to see him and would rather be with her because she's so wonderful....Been there. We just put the kid kicking and screaming in the car and let people stare. I've gone so far as blocking Wingnut's view through the car window because she'd keep talking and giving the kid sad eyes. Its all crap. And the reason the kids do that shit is because mommy hypes them up about it and makes them feel guilty.
"That's how women are, aren't they? We want to know that others have been where we've been, who understand our fragile places, and who see our sunsets in the same shades of blue" - Beth Moore
lol =) I know i have said
lol
I know i have said this before but i love this site! I get to talk to wonderful people who know first hand that Im not making this stuff up there are really mothers out there who suck that bad and yes would emotionally abuse thier child to serve their own purpose. So you think thats what we should do next time? Here is the thing that kills me. This whole softball thing happend Friday, we had the kids wednesday and SS5 was all lovey dovey and told BF a million times he loved him before going to bed so why the sudden change when mommy is around you hate your dad? Really?
They're taught to put on a
They're taught to put on a show for mommy. Its driven by anxiety and the idea that betraying mommy will mean bad things. I know Wingnut would cry in front of Creature and tell her "daddy doesn't love us". This led Creature to feel like mommy needed her more. She also told Creature that dh was mean and scary and that they should both be afraid of him. Creature knew this wasn't true and was fine with dh, but whenever Wingnut was present, she'd put on the "I'm scared show" and even lie to anyone that she equated with mommy. Four years later, she still won't speak to DH on the phone when she is with her mother. At this point it is annoying because Creature knows lying is wrong, but her mother rewards her with presents if she does what she is told.
Prime example, we had a court ordered child psychiatrist talk to Creature. After each session, mommy promised her a trip to Chuck E. Cheese if she told the doctor that daddy scares her. Fortunately, the doctor was very smart and his report reflected the alienation.
"That's how women are, aren't they? We want to know that others have been where we've been, who understand our fragile places, and who see our sunsets in the same shades of blue" - Beth Moore
I cant help but wonder why
I cant help but wonder why you would do this to your child. Why you would want them to feel insecure with anyone but you?
Three Words - Narcissistic
Three Words - Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The only thing that matters is that their ego is being fed and what better way to feed it than to have a person (a child) show everyone that they love you and not their other parent. Its a ego feed. Plain and simple. And it has the added affect of hurting the other parent. I know in our case, there were several reasons for Wingnut to do it.
1) it made her feel good
2) it gave her a sense of control over the situation
3) if she could convince everyone dh was scary and abusive, she could blame him for the divorce and now look at her own behavior
4) if she could convince everyone dh was scary and abusive, he wouldn't get custody (she was lobbying for supervised visitation) and she'd maximize cs, alimony and equity distribution as the primary custodian
5) if she made the battle hard enough, she thought dh might give in and come home (she said this to him)
6) if she could make the case that he really was a monster, I might leave him and he'd be alone.
Too bad she was caught in her web of deceit, we got 50/50 custody, she lost the ability to even take her own kid to the pediatrician, and I am still here.
"That's how women are, aren't they? We want to know that others have been where we've been, who understand our fragile places, and who see our sunsets in the same shades of blue" - Beth Moore
I know I dont need to say
I know I dont need to say this but people like these BMs should not be allowed to have children.
We have a very different
We have a very different form of PAS....
BM sabotages relationship at every single chance. However, she never ever wants us to miss visitation, as she needs the break. It is awful. She wants us to accept into our homes these two preteen boys, who for all intents and purposes, for the last 6 years have been taught that their dad is nothing but someone to use and abuse and disrespect.
It is crimminal.
Every town has an Elm Street
I just asked her how she did
I just asked her how she did it and what she told the judge. I could go on and on about what a lack of parenting skills BM posses how she talked to her 5 year old about why her and BF arent married anymore. Still sleeps with the kids, showers with the kids, doesnt give them a bedtime, doesnt make them pick up after themselves, lets them pull things off the shelves in stores and eat or play with whatever they grabbed and gives the empty packages to the checkout person, Has 80 million pets in her house and doesnt take care of them, doesnt cook dinner, does SS5s homework for him. Even seen that show Hoarders? Thats what her house looks like, kids are always filthy so when they come to our house and have to clean up the toys they brought out brush thier teeth and take a bath before BEDTIME and arent allowed to whine, hit and act like animals they dont like being there. Come on! give me a break.
Document anything that
Document anything that disrupts visitation. If you guys are not getting your visitation, document dates, reasons...anything that has to do with skids or BM backing out. If skids or BM start mentioning anything about being fearful or frightened around you or in your home, document what they say and any circumstances that go with it, with dates. Anything out of the ordinary needs to be mentioned and dated. If BM calls to cancel, document date and reason. PAS occurs over time, and I know in our situation, by the time we realized what was happening, there had already been so much damage done. There is a court order in place for a reason...to give skids appropriate time with each parent. We thought we were doing the skids a favor in letting them spend extra time with their mom. All we were doing was giving BM more opportunity to turn them against us.
DH doesn't see his kids
DH doesn't see his kids anymore. It's all thanks to them being PAS'd out the butt. If I were to give any advice, I would absolutely say that the time to confront it and take action is as soon as it starts.
DH & I thought BM was just being a pain in the tail. We had no idea there was a name for it, & we certainly had no idea that the end result would be losing skids altogether.
Document EVERYTHING...and put a stop to it before BM gets to them any more than she has.
When you say document
When you say document everything what is everything. I know im asking a very vauge question but BF and BM have almost no interaction. We just know how she is and she doesnt foster a relationship between the kids and BF. I believe that one of the main reasons they dont want to be at our house is because we hold them accountable for thier actions so basically they dont like our house because there are rules and they love being with BM because they litteraly can do whatever they want however they want and when they want to do it! Its crazy.
Also how old are your DH
Also how old are your DH kids and when did he stop seeing them? What was the build up to it? Did he make the choice or what? How is that working out for you guys? Does DH feel ok with the situtaion? Does he have peace knowing he tried everything he could?
SS16 and SD13. The last
SS16 and SD13. The last time we saw them was last July at SS16's birthday party...for about 2 hours. There was no opportunity for one-on-one conversation, as BM hovered over them (as she does at any function). When they weren't under her nose, they were out skating. They have their parties at a skate center. As for real visitation, SS16 stopped coming about 2 years ago. SSD13 stopped coming as soon as they went back to live with BM, about 5 years ago. It's not working out for us at all. DH does not feel okay with the situation, as their choices have been based on lies by BM.
With all of the time that has passed neither DH or myself feels peace, even though I know in my heart he truly has done everything he could do. I think a lot of this struggle is due to the fact that in the end, DH made the choice to let them live with BM. His choice was based on things BM made up, but he holds himself accountable because he "allowed" it to happen.
Our relationship has been "off" since they moved back with BM and we have yet to figure out how to get it back.
Wow ... I wish i had some
Wow ... I wish i had some great words of wisdom to give you but i dont. I am sorry to hear that your situation is like that. I fear that is they way my BF kids are going to be when they get older. They will stop coming over.
I know it was mentioned on
I know it was mentioned on here earlier, but the book "Divorce Poison" is an excellent source and has a lot of helpful suggestions. I know many people purchased it. I haven't...yet. I checked it out at the library, but it had enough in it, I will be buying a copy to have on hand.
Get the Book, "Divorce
Get the Book, "Divorce Poison" by Dr. Richard Warshalk ASAP! His kids are young and you can still fight this emotional ABUSE- because that's exactly what it is.
Sadly, my DH's kids were too old by the time we realized what was going on to stop our horrid BM. The damage is permanent, especially for his middle daughter, who just turned 18. She officially hates her father, me, and anything that has to do with our home.
From what the 'experts' say, DO NOT let the BM EVER call the shots on custody. Dad has rights, and he has to assert them at ALL COSTS. And get everything documented. And see a lawyer who will fight for dad's rights based on this ABUSE.
Good luck.
"Of course things worked out nicely for Carol Brady...she had a live-in maid and Mike's first wife was DEAD!"
You know I read the posts
You know I read the posts about PAS... and I have come to the conclusion that I may have a reverse situation...My BF is the one being the "PAS'er" and BM is the one who deals with going for months sometimes without seeing her daughter because BF and his mom openly talk about what a bad person BM is and telling Princess things like "You don't like going to momma's cause it's boring and she doesn't get you stuff" and "you love your daddy so much you would never wanna go live with momma"
Is that PAS or am I confusing myself with other weirdness... :?
That is PAS. Plain and
That is PAS. Plain and simple.
Yep, that's it!
Yep, that's it!
That is just mean. "That's
That is just mean.
"That's how women are, aren't they? We want to know that others have been where we've been, who understand our fragile places, and who see our sunsets in the same shades of blue" - Beth Moore
Did you ever ask him WHY he
Did you ever ask him WHY he would do something like this to his daughter? Because it IS indeed emotional abuse and he is doing such incredible damage to her emotional well-being.
The NUMBER ONE cardinal rule of Co-Parenting in a divorced situation is to NEVER Bad-Mouth the other Parent in front of the child. Period.
It does more damage to a child than hitting or spanking a child.
"Of course things worked out nicely for Carol Brady...she had a live-in maid and Mike's first wife was DEAD!"
Oh I totally agree....no
Oh I totally agree....no matter how I felt about my ex, I never spoke of him harshly around his son and I never denied him to go see him because a child needs both of his parents in his/her life if the situation permits. This situation with BF and his family is totally out there. I have a feeling that this situation is going to backfire and instead of making it so that Princess never wants to live with her mom...it might draw her closer to her when she gets old enough to realize the BS. Guess we'll stay tuned and find out. I only say nice things about BM to Princess and encourage a relationship.
It's a good thing she has
It's a good thing she has YOU to show her the right example! But I still wonder WHY he feels it necessary to do this, especially if he sees you doing the right thing.
Does he know it bothers you when he does it? My DH, when things with BM would be REALLY incessant with the bad-mouthing, would get very frustrated and "slip" every so often, but he knew it bothered me a lot. And he would immediately apologize to both the kids and me.
The kids used to to be absolutely astonished that he would actually apologize to them for his inappropriate behavior (obviously, something BM NEVER does!)
"Of course things worked out nicely for Carol Brady...she had a live-in maid and Mike's first wife was DEAD!"
Thank you my ladies...I was
Thank you my ladies...I was just making sure...guess I need to learn about this...sigh...
You nailed it on the head
You nailed it on the head soverysad with the Narcissistic.
My SS's BM, actually told them that everytime she goes to work, she puts her life in jeopardy and could get shot.
She is a smoking bi-law enforcer....wanna be cop.
She told the kids that to make them insecure and dependant on her.They would cry at night when at our house, and need to call her.
This fed her ego tremendously.
One teeny tiny example of what we are dealing with.
One sick sick woman.
Every town has an Elm Street
Yep. Wingnut has to call to
Yep. Wingnut has to call to talk to Creature all the time too, just to show she'll talk to her but not dh on the phone (um, yeh because we don't make her feel bad about it). She used to use those calls to further the PAS and Creature bought into it hook, line and sinker because mommy lavished attention on her if she said she was miserable here. I ended that by hanging up on her whenever she said something negative. Making children dependent on you is the easiest way to control them!
"That's how women are, aren't they? We want to know that others have been where we've been, who understand our fragile places, and who see our sunsets in the same shades of blue" - Beth Moore
I agree my BM still showers
I agree my BM still showers and sleeps with the kids. Just another twisted way to keep them close. BM doesnt call to talk to the kids when we have them and we dont call her when she has them. Every now and then she will dial the number and when we answer its the 5 year old saying hi. A lot of the times he calls the 5 year old answers her phone from what i read thats one of the signs of PAS when one parent wont talk to the other just hands the phone straight to the kids.
How old are the skids?!!! I
How old are the skids?!!! I understand letting a five year old sleep in your bed if he or she has a nightmare or something, but showering? Seriously, I think age three is probably the oldest age you should bathe with your kid, otherwise it just verges on creepy!
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they will kill you." ~Oscar Wilde
SS5 will be 6 this year and
SS5 will be 6 this year and SD is 3. I personally would never shower with my kids because I believe that, that is a private time to clean yourself. I dont judge people for bathing with thier babies though. Almost 6 is not a baby. When the first vagina/breast your son is going to remember seeing is yours i feel that is a problem. She sleeps with them everynight because she beleives in the "family bed"
Wow! That is walking on the
Wow! That is walking on the line, pretty much and other than being creepy will set the skids up for trouble being independent later. They will have a hard time sleeping on their own and growing up normally. I agree about babies and am all for sleeping with your babies when they are little. My mom always had us in her bed when we were very little and it was very cosy and we had no problems moving to our own beds when we were a little older. I also think nudity is not a big deal around your kids and it helps with potty training if you show your kids and model good hygiene. It's when they get older that it gets creepy. "The family bed" makes my skin crawl! That is so creepy! When a kid says something like that, you know you have a problem. I've heard of stuff like that though and one of my best friends mom breast fed her little brother until he was six!!!!!
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they will kill you." ~Oscar Wilde
Yes i agree with some of
Yes i agree with some of that. I have a daughter who is 6 she has seen me in a bra and panties and when trying on brides maid dresses she seen my breast but shes a girl. If it was my 6 year old son he wouldnt have been in the dressing room with me. I dont think a 6 year old boy should be around his naked brother.
That's so sick, twisted and
That's so sick, twisted and pathetic in so many ways. Your DH should've taken her to court to request full custody (and supervised visitation for her) - if this is just one example of how your BM PAS's your SS, he should win hands down. Document, document, document.
BM will only know DH is serious about this if he forces the issue with her by taking her to court.
Good luck over!!!
They didnt want to hear it
They didnt want to hear it in court. One of the other big issues he and i have is SS5 is not circumsized (sp) which in itself is not a problem to each their own. Here is the problem. She does not make him pull the skin back when he pees and she does not make sure that he pulls the skin back to clean it when he is in the bath tub. This last Wednesday BF was giving him a bath and told him to pull the skin back and you should have heard it. Crying in pain because he couldnt get the head to poke out it was stuck in there. Are you serious? Here is the greatest part about that. She didnt want him have it done so that sex is better for him when he is older!!!!!!!!!!!! That was the main concern you had when making that choice are you serious?!
Hi LMR120. Sorry, my reply
Hi LMR120. Sorry, my reply about taking BM to court for full custody was meant for overmyhead's post (a few posts above yours) - it just somehow appeared down here below your reply when I sent it, instead of coming up beneath hers.
It was the one in which her BM PAS's the skids by telling them that she puts her life in jeopardy and could be shot at any time when she goes to work (her BM is a smoking bylaw enforcer who is a wannabe cop), which makes them unable to sleep when they are with their father & over.
I hear you Milomom! I just
I hear you Milomom!
I just wish we could afford it. It took us two years and 9,000.00 just to try to prevent her from changing their names and vary child support.
Now there is The Office of the Childrens Lawyer involved. We are waiting to see if they will take our case or not.
At this point they are my only hope.
As far as the creepy factor......I have one for you. How about BM calls, 9 year old SS answers phone and says....."Hi Beautiful, I miss you?"
I almost gagged. My mom was with me when we overheard it.....she was like "you have to get the hell away from these people".
That was 3 years ago.....and here I still am.....
Every town has an Elm Street
OMG overmyhead...wow. I am
OMG overmyhead...wow. I am speechless (and that's an accomplishment in itself - lol). That's definitely creepy and totally dysfunctional for a 9 yr old boy to say "Hi Beautiful" to his mom. Weird. Did your DH/BF hear him when he said that? What did he do? Your BF/DH should be discussing with him that he shouldn't be saying things like that to his mom (and he should also be discussing this with BM & how inappropriate it is) - IMHO.
**By the way, I'm not saying that him telling OTHER people that he thinks "Mommy is pretty." or "My mommy is beautiful." is inappropriate or weird, THAT would be normal.**
I have a similar issue with SS12 when he talks to BM on the phone: "Hi Mommy. I love you too. I miss you too. Mwah (sounds of kisses) mwah, I miss you too, etc...". And this same thing will be repeated MANY times in the ONE conversation - over and over and over again. You get the picture.
Now even when he was younger (he was 6 when I started dating BF) I thought this was a little strange, but I blew it off as maybe he was just being cute & lovey dovey with his Mom. I remember telling myself that he'd outgrow this with her as he got older (thinking that if he talks to his Mom like this over the phone, blowing her kisses, in front of his friends, he would surely be made fun of by them).
But TO THIS DAY, and he's going to be 13 in November, he still talks to her this way & she to him. "Love you. Mwah, mwah, miss you. Ok, uh huh, love you too...mwah, mwah".
Now mind you, we share 50/50 custody with BM!! They live with us 4 days/week then 3 days/week the following week. So he STILL SEES HER and lives with her 3-4 days a week every week!!
Talk about a form of PAS! I feel that she somehow has this "Mamma's boy" spell over him that he feels that he HAS to call/text her every day. Otherwise, BM will call & text him several times/day while he's with us. It's so annoying. BM knows that SS12 is happy, healthy and having fun when he's with us (and his friends live nearby, so she doesn't have any excuses that he's bored or whatever)...and it's been this way for 6 FRIGGIN YEARS!!! AHHHH!!
BTW, SD15 has NEVER, EVER acted this way with BM & doesn't do it now. I think in the beginning (when SD was 9), BM would also say the "I miss you...mwah" crap to her over the phone & SD would agree, but that hasn't happened in many years now.
The only thing I can think of is that BM has Narcissistic (sp?) Personality Disorder that soverysad posted about recently (in a post above this).
She absolutely hates that the skids are fine when they're with us - it probably drives her NUTS. You'd think after 6 years she'd GET OVER HERSELF, but nope, the bullcrap continues.
Oh yes Milomom, These
Oh yes Milomom,
These Narcissistic Moms thrive on thier kids needing them.They create dependancy,they will stop at nothing to get it.Including getting attention from Health Professionals and mafifesting fake illness to martyr themselves to the doctors, shrinks, schools etc...
I know it seems like there should be something we could do, but believe me, we have tried.You can't reason with CRAZY.
We decided to take the boys when we could, to never say anything negative about BM, and just set a good example. That worked, for awhile. However, the seeds were planted, sown and have taken root, despite all efforts. Unless we play doormat, we are scorned.
Guess what? Go for it.......I would rather have no kids or stepkids, than kids that don't respect me.
It still hurts though......
Every town has an Elm Street
I agree with Stepma. Once
I agree with Stepma. Once your DH/BF starts allowing the children to CHOOSE between parents, it will only grow into a NIGHTMARE when they're older.
All kids go through some sort of "struggle" when having to first get used to their parents being divorced and living separate lives. That's normal. But when one parent (BM in your case, as in ours) starts to "brainwash" the children that the other doesn't love them, or doesn't take care of them in their house, or they won't have fun with the other parent, etc... that is 100% PAS and should be stopped immediately, IMHO.
The CO should be followed without exceptions if your BM is irrational & abnormal, as yours seems to be. No parent (mother or father) should actually WANT or ENCOURAGE their child to NOT HAVE a relationship with the other parent. No excuses. Period.
OMG stepma you are so
OMG stepma you are so right...children should not be able to choose! Unless there are bad things (drugs, abuse, neglect)going on at either place they need to spend time with both parents as outlined by the court...it is absolute BS to let children do what they want.