PAS should be a crime.
I know we've talked about it thousands of times here but I'll say it again. PAS should be a crime. It is child abuse. Any child abuser/PASinator deserves to do a stint in prison and lose custody permanently. Maybe if PASinators knew that they would face hefty jail time and losing custody, they wouldn't practice PAS.
I think PAS needs to be discussed at our national and state Capitols. I think someone from our site should run for state or national office and get PAS on the radar screen, and introduce a bill making it a crime.
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I am having a hard time
I am having a hard time understanding what pas is. Can you educate me on this syndrome?
Parental alienation syndrome.
Parental alienation syndrome. It's sort of like talking bad about the other parent to the child. Then it forces thus child into picking sides, when there should have been no side to pick from in the first place. Kids love there parents and both parents should respect that.
I think that PAS should be
I think that PAS should be talked about a lot more! It really is a horrible thing and does the child no good! Our BM has lot all custody. But back when she had eow she loved to tell my SD who was 10-11 "your dad didn't want you. He told me to get an aborition." REALLY??? First of lady he was 19 years old. He only f@!? you once so no he didn't think the baby was his. But what did he do when he got the DNA test back? Got a lawyer and spent $14000 to get custody of her! That is so low to tell a little girl her daddy didn't want her! Get it straight he didn't want you!
***** lost all custody*****
***** lost all custody*****
Your husband and my husband
Your husband and my husband must have the same BM. Hey maybe were some kind of weird step-related. LOL
Haha maybe!
The easy answer is when one
The easy answer is when one parent brainwashes their children to believe negative things about another parent--the target. In essence, the alienator is really projecting their hatred of the target parent onto their children.
Our's started like this: BM to skids, DH left me because work was more important than me. He was never home for us, we aren't important to him.
The reality: DH does work long hours, for only 32 weeks of the year. And during this time he was starting a new company, which is successful and has provided for a comfortable lifestyle. BM, by her own choice, was afforded to be a stay at home mom. She used her extra time to put the kids in day care and have affairs.
BM was not full-filled with being a wife or a SAHM. She may very well feel that DH didn't think she was important and used this to justify her affairs. She never told the kids about her affairs being the reason they divorced, so the kids believe that DH was never home and they weren't important. This version has been continually reinforced by BM, and is the foundation of DH's parenting by guilt.
I know this happens-but
I know this happens-but honestly the negative connection to PAS and the man that coined the term make me look the other and discount the term entirely. I"m not saying parents don't alienate their kids-but there is GOOD reason that PAS is NOT considered in courts anymore. It was a "theory" coined by a horrible pro child molester man who stabbed himself repeatedly to death. Richard Gardner. The fact that the term is used on the board instantly makes me shiver. Courts and other experts as well have discounted it. It is junk science and has put children at risk.
That is again-NOT to say parents don't alienate kids from the other parent...but that term and the negative connotation to it will make it to where the real problem isn't addressed. IMO the term should be dropped and never used again
http://www.jfcadvocacy.org/documents/PASDAYReleaseandFactSheet.pdf
What, in your opinion, is the
What, in your opinion, is the "real problem" that is not being addressed? If the term PAS should be dropped, what term would you give "it".
Wow. I could not disagree
Wow. I could not disagree more.!! Also found the site listed and other similar ones very disturbing, discrediting this poor man, who I read committed suicide due to chronic physical pain. What basis are you using to say he was pro child molester? Just Wow!!!
Sounds like even the idea of PAS (since it supposedly doesn't exist), struck a nerve, with some folks! Who determines what is 'junk science' anyway, by what authority?
Struck a nerve?? Poor man????
Struck a nerve?? Poor man???? Please educate yourself before saying that. Nobody commits that violent of a suicide because of physical pain...pills would have done it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Gardner
http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/info/custody-abuse/parental-alienation...
http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/RAG.html
That man was a vile, disgusting, pro-pedophile, junk science man...that IMO died the death he deserved. Maybe you'll learn how much damage his little theory and thoughts did.
"Nobody commits that violent
"Nobody commits that violent of a suicide because of physical pain...pills would have done it."
My recent neighbor chose to hang himself. 30 years ago another neighbor chose a gun...in her mouth... that same woman's child's husband chose to sit in the car with the door closed... who are you to judge which form a suicide is acceptable?
Did you READ some of the
Did you READ some of the views this man had on pedophilia and how misogynist and harmful to kids he was??? Do you get it??? Go back to the links...better yet if we want to jump on this bandwagon of defending this disgusting freak-why not read some of his books for yourself and form your own opinion.
I will not use the term- I'm glad that man is burning in hell right now.
PAS has been used over and over to RETURN CHILDREN TO PEDOPHILE PARENTS AND ALLOW UNSUPERVISED VISITATION THAT ALLOWED THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN TO CONTINUE TO BE MOLESTED> Read that again.
THIS is why the term is no longer recognizable/accepted and has been discredited by Medical associations, therapists, doctors, judges, child advocates.
Not saying badmouthing doesn't happen....but I refuse to associate with that word, term or description.
Admittedly I have not studied
Admittedly I have not studied Gardner's biography; I have read theories from Warshak and Waldron, and a whole lot others I can't recall, so I am not going to argue the merits of Gardner himself.
I think that it is very shortsighted of you to dismiss Gardner because he allegedly was pro-pedo, or believes that pedos are born, or that all humans have the potential to pervert... or because it happens in nature, ergo, natural. It's like saying that all religions are bunk because there are harmful and whacked pedos at the pulpit.
FWIW: Freud was a bit whacked himself and widely criticized and challenged... yet he is the founder of Psychoanalysis and many of his controversial theories are acknowledged, studied and most importantly, advanced.
Here is a link by Waldron. http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/waldron.pdf
"I think that it is very
"I think that it is very shortsighted of you to dismiss Gardner because he allegedly was pro-pedo, or believes that pedos are born, or that all humans have the potential to pervert... or because it happens in nature, ergo, natural. It's like saying that all religions are bunk because there are harmful and whacked pedos at the pulpit. "
Shortsighted...allegedly...natural.... I have nothing more to discuss with you.
I dont' care WHAT term is used-I"m sure with all the phenomenon of this ocurring we could/should have come up with something...peer reviewed, studied, and then used as a legimate term of defense that is WIDELY recognizable and accepted. PAS wasn't -hasn't been-and won't ever be one of them. It's been widely discredited.
Yeah, well ... you go back to
Yeah, well ... you go back to your happy chappy life and let those of us who are in the trenches figure it out... K?
"Shortsighted...allegedly...n
"Shortsighted...allegedly...natural.... I have nothing more to discuss with you."
LOL... homophobes that do not believe in genetic correlation and/or predisposition, do not have much to discuss with me, either...
Who is a homophobe?? And no
Who is a homophobe?? And no reason for you to get snarky about happy chappy life...do you know much of my life?? Then you call out people that are immature....hmmm..just because I happen to be disgusted with a pro-pedophile's life-you somehow you have taken offense to that. Whatever.
First of all, I didn't call
First of all, I didn't call you a homophobe, my statement was meant to illustrate your closed mindedness. And now, I will call you out on your comprehension skills, skills BTW, that are needed to plow through complicated reading materials, such as medical and/or legal opinions.
As for your Happy Chappy life... I read your bio-page; maybe you might want to update it.
Close minded because I don't
Close minded because I don't agree with Gardner's views on pedophilia....perhaps you agree with him....and you question my comprehension skills and yet admitted you haven't read his bio or books...funny. My bio-page..is jsut that-mine....update because you think I should?
I have issues with the SD also-mainly her and my son-and normaly blended family issues that arise between my partner and I. But I'm sorry if i'm not as poisoned or unhappy as you think I should be in order to "fit in".
Okay, the difference here is
Okay, the difference here is that I do not stop listening just because I hear the word pedo. When I read Gardner's theories about victims and predators, I do so with an open mind, so that I can understand what is being communicated. I leave all of my prejudices aside. When I am done, I digest the author's theories and the reasoning behind it. Given that the author is highly educated, I presume he is approaching the subject from a very high-minded psychological/philosophical level, rather than the mundane. This does not mean that the author is right or even that I agree with his theories. .
With that said, I think Gardner is trying to say that in some situations it is best to shield a child from the parents or law enforcement who would project our western societal guilt and shame on to the child, thus, causing the child more damage than what was done by pedo.
Very simple analogy: when a kids falls off the monkey bars and is just about to get back up to go play, mom comes screaming to the rescue asking if Johnny is okay, you hurt self, let mommy kiss it…and Johnny starts crying uncontrollably. Then mommy says.. you should stay of the monkey bars.. you will get hurt. Johnny becomes afraid of the monkey bars.
So what I think Gardner is trying to say is that the psychological injury may be far worse than the physical injury.
I do not think that he is trying to say: Everyone have Wang Chung tonight!
I was going to try to respond
I was going to try to respond like this but just did not have the energy - the examples I came up with were:
Martin Luther - 95 theses detailing corruption in the church nailed to door of Catholic Church, started the Reformation that created the entire Protestant church. I have been Lutheran all my life and just learned, he had some strange writings that seem totally out of character, against Jews. He still had the guts to go up against the Church during a terrible time of corruption for them, Inquisition, etc. saving many people even while staying in hiding for his life.
Martin Luther King - noted civil rights leader with questionable associates and personal life. But look at all he accomplished!
People can be groundbreaking, and yet not politically correct in some way - the contribution, discovery, etc. to me often outweighs their personal flaws, to me - but I was not familiar w/even his name. I realized my knowledge of PAS came from Divorce Poison, by another author. I just think it is cruel to make fun of someone who committed suicide, or create entire websites to completely annihilate another person's reputation, but hey, we are all entitled to our opinions.
I had a third example but can't think of it now. I just don't think that either of us was going to convince the other and it really doesn't matter because I do believe in the concept - so I just kept going! but thanks for trying
Our history is riddled with
Our history is riddled with out the box thinkers that have been persecuted, in spite of their wondrous contributions...
Even today, kids in school that do not fit into the mold are labeled with derogatory acronyms...
out of the box
out of the box thinkers...websites to anhilate and make fun of him??? READ his books. If you STILL feel defensive and lovey towards him as an "outside of the box" thinker then obviously there will be no reasoning for me to attempt
Comparing MLK...or outside the box thinkers to someone who condoned pedophilia ...are you for real? Simply because you like a term?
Nobody has said that parents dont' talk bad about the other parents and that it's horrid and destroys lives...but to now just stand there and defend this guy. Absoultely unnaceptable to me. But hey-I guess to some people it's natural, normal and ok.
I understand your viewpoint
I understand your viewpoint but also feel, by taking this hard stance you are trying to silence those who talk about
PAS (for lack of a better term that you say is unacceptable even though it is the only recognizable way to describe
it), by saying by anyone acknowledging that PAS happens, means they are also endorsing an 'alleged' pedophile.
I feel the same way about the websites - their purpose is to intimidate people from talking about PAS. Now what and
whose purpose does that serve? Those who practice it.
The OP was saying PAS should be a crime and I completely agree. I don't want to fight on this place of step
support, so hopefully we can agree to disagree.
You know maybe it isn't
You know maybe it isn't scientifically proven and maybe some twisted parents do use it as a tool to cover abuse. However, whatever you want to call it...it DOES happen. In good unabusive situations. I see PAS being when one parent (who as an adult has a major influence and impact on a child's views) makes he other parent to be the 'bad guy' by talking negatively about them, telling lies about the situTion, even just talking to the kids about their situation, making the child feel scared/worried/dreadful to visit said parent, to name a few. By the parent's words and actions the child loses a desire to have a relationship with the other parent because of they feel it is 'wrong' or 'bad' to want to have a relationship with someone who is 'bad'. We see it allthe time in thisforum- bm's keeping the kids from visits, bm's talking bad about the bd's, bm's telling the kids they miss them/cry when they are with dad...read all the poss on here! Whatever it is called is basically alienating the childfrom a parent. And that is NOT good.
I know it happens-I just
I know it happens-I just refuse to ever address or call it PAS or reference to anything that Gardner created....
I agree what you mentioned can happen-dont' forget though-there are plenty of NCdads that do the same thing -it works both ways.
What would you prefer to call
What would you prefer to call "It"?
Sorry... I live "It". "It" is real. Yeah it is horrendous that others have/will use "It" as an excuse to mask sexually abusing children, or use "It" to administer false charges of sexual abuse. "It", however is no different than the myriad of excuses used to deflect blame in other crimes.
"I agree what you mentioned
"I agree what you mentioned can happen-dont' forget though-there are plenty of NCdads that do the same thing -it works both ways."
I agree, I have seen it go BOTH ways - NCPs using the CP as the "scapegoat" for the NCP's own CHOICE to be absent and deadbeat, and CP using children as weapon to punish NCP by withholding visitation and telling the child bad things about the NCP.
Actually some courts do
Actually some courts do recognize PAS. I am working with a family right now in which custody was transferred to the father due to extreme PAS behavior by bm. It specifically states that PAS is the reason for the custody change. I am in the mental health field and agree that it is a real phenomenon as do the all of my colleagues that I've talked with about it. I find that name of it is unimportant and while the guy who coined the term was a freak it doesn't mean that he didn't have one scrap of insight somewhere. Look at Freud and all he contributed to our understanding of psychology but yet he was also a cocaine user.
A cocaine user (which was
A cocaine user (which was common those days actually)....and a man who deems that pedophilia is not really all that harmful and has advocated and his work allowed for the sexual abuse of many kids...big difference.
It doesnt matter if it was
It doesnt matter if it was common in those days or not-obviously he was in an altered state at times-yet we still consider many of his theories valid. I don't agree with Richard Gardener-but I do agree with PAS
Thank you all for explaining
Thank you all for explaining PAS to me. I never realized that what the ex was doing had a name. At this point it is water under the bridge since the skids involved are 16 and 17 now.
Don't be so sure... PAS can
Don't be so sure... PAS can warp their life long thinking... self-esteem.
When me and DH were first
When me and DH were first engaged, BM got very angry. When SD would talk to BM about me (good things) BM would tell her "there is no SM, do not talk about SM" Then SD would tell me next time she saw me that BM told her not to talk about me.