Intro and S-daughter difficult to like
I'm new to posting here. Maybe someone has helpful advice other than what I keep telling myself: remember she's had a rough life, be patient, she needs love. I think maybe I should gently broach some subjects either with DH or SD--but I'm overly non-confrontational and in my life, talking about things rarely changes anything. Then again DH is not my dysfunctional family or XH.
The situation: SD lost her mother when she was about 11. I met him and her very shortly after. He and I were together until she was about 13. I broke up with him, he married someone else who turned out to be place-able on the scale of stereotypical evil stepmothers. She treated SD horribly. SD's counseling over her mother's death quickly turned to what was happening at home with the new SM.
For that and other reasons, the marriage was VERY short-lived. DH and I re-united.
SD was a little socially awkward when I met her at 11 but likeable enough. She did seem a little stuck in wanting to retreat to childhood (for instance at 16, still ate with her baby utensils with cute little characters on the handles). Now at 21, I find her to be incredibly childish and intensely self-focused/self-centered. She makes what come across as very snarky comments to me (I truly think she doesn't realize how the comments are coming across and doesn't intend it.)
She has a tendency to say things to me as if, Duh, everyone knows that. (An example, she's a French major and there was a question about a word on a French menu and she acted as if everyone should know what it means.) Stupid little things, but dozens of such comments begin to grate.
She doesn't pick up after herself. Without the SM making her work an hour or two a day on chores, she's gone the opposite extreme. She didn't help in the last pinch-before-movers arrived a couple months ago, instead playing online games with her friends rather than do the job her dad asked her to do. I had already helped her pack up the last of her bedroom. DH defended her, saying let her relax a little, although she'd done her own thing most of the day, and he went and did her job for her.
She was careless when walking my dog which nearly got my dog killed and never apologized, but rather hyper-focused on the scrape on her hand, updating me about it for three weeks so I would feel too guilty to say, "Hey, my dog could have been killed. You have to be more carefu!" It was literally a scrape on her palm and she bandaged it from the fingertips up past the wrist when we went to a funeral. Her dad agreed it was emotional manipulation. [Had she acknowledged the severe potential consequence to my dog, I would have had a whole lot more sympathy for the scrape on her palm.]
At 21, she refuses to help with meal preparation in part because she's so afraid of cutting her fingers while chopping vegetables. She sat around talking to my friends while DH and I did 100% of the cooking AND clean-up. Didn't so much as pick up her own dishes or soda bottles.
I could probably go on. But I struggle with this because I figure asking her to put her dishes in the dishwasher has already happened dozens of times. She never does it without being asked so I grit my teeth, refuse to pick up after her and let her dishes sit until her dad does it. But it's not right at her age.
I wonder how much of this stuff is coming from her age and the way she and friends talk to each other that she doesn't realize comes out very wrong in talking to an adult. I wonder how much is coming from the abuse from her SM. How much is coming from her dad coddling her a bit because he feels guilt about bringing that SM into her life and because she lost her BM at such a young age.
I wonder how much this will resolve itself with her counseling--except I doubt her counseler has this understanding because SD is never going to say to her, "I say obnoxious things and never pick up after myself." So how can the counselor address this??
I think she GETS that I've become very stiff around her and I'm sure she doesn't know why--because she perceives herself in a way as a little child. She heard her dad and I arguing about her lack of helping on the move and about what happened to my dog--so in some sense she KNOWS what I'm upset about.
I genuinely WANT to like her. And I just don't. I'm relieved when she heads back to college. I try to focus on her good points (great intellect, musical, hard-working at college and her job, in great financial shape with fantastic savings, etc.) I think maybe I should talk to DH, ask him to suggest to her that she stop correcting me and acting like 'everyone' should know such and such. But he already knows this, we've already talked about it and nothing changes.
I'm trying to have sympathy for all she's suffered in life. I'm trying to adjust my own attitude. But I'm just really struggling with these things. I don't know if I should try to talk to her directly or ask DH to suggest that she help prepare dinner and clean up. In part, I'm worried how she's going to take care of herself as an adult if she doesn't get over some of her fears, like of chopping vegetables, too.
Home for the holidays?
Is she just home for the holidays and going back to school next month? Or does she live with you full time?
Yes, just home for holidays
Yes, just home for holidays and back to school. It's a temporary situation as she's rarely home now and then will be states away in grad school. Yet I still want to find a path to resolving things and genuinely LIKING, even loving her. Her father desperately wants to replace her MOTHER and wants me to love her as her birth mother did.
That is rediculous. You will
That is rediculous. You will never lover her like her mother did. Especially the way she acts. This is a completely insane expectation.
Your DH is unrealistic
He's unrealistic if he, or you, think you will love her like a mother. It is sad that she's been thru so much trauma about her mother and stepmother and I understand his desire to "make things well". I think the best you can hope for with this immature, oblivious person is to aim for mutual respect. Thank goodness this is a temporary situation.
I'd disengage somewhat, for your own sanity. Perhaps, you could broach some of her behavior by saying to DH, " I worry about SD. She's so (intelligent, beautiful or any positive quality). I worry that other people will be put off by her (poor manners, immature behavior or whichever quality bothers you most). I'm so concerned for her".
I guess I hear of step-parent
I guess I hear of step-parent situations where they really do seem to love the step-children greatly and in fact, he's always said how much he LOVES my kids and the way he treats them, I absolutely believe him. He's been so incredibly good to them.
He does know that some of her behavior is defeating what she wants in life and not good for her. He does talk to her about these things and she argues with him why she 'can't' do things differently. He is worried about her, too and keeps hoping that her counseling will help her and that she'll outgrow some of these things.
Maybe your kids are more
Maybe your kids are more loveable, and you parent them better?
You are hot her birth mother.
You are hot her birth mother. You will never her love her like her birth mother did and your DH's delusion on this is clear proof of his immaturity on this topic.
However, you can love her as only you can. If your DH can't grasp that concept.... the SD is not the problem
My son is not mine. At least not biologically. But I raised him as my own, I love his as my own, and he chose when he was 22 to officially become my own. Though he always has been.
Time to have a come to Jesus discussion with your DH on this. This is an adult woman, do not chase her. Be direct, tell her what you want, what you require, and how she will have to actively engage with you to build a version of the relationship her father is asking both of you to develop. Tell your DH that it is not his place to stipulate anything about the relationship you and your SD develop. If she is reasonable and will discuss it with you, DH has zero place in that effort. If she is unreasonable and/or disrespectful then both you and DH need to put your collective married couple foot up her ass.
IMHO of course.
Good luck.
Thank you. I think that's
Thank you. I think that's true that I can only love her as ... myself. To be fair to him, I think he simply wants someone to genuinely love his daughter in some motherly way and I don't think that's out of line. He hasn't pushed anything on me except to say a couple of times over the past year that this matters to him--and both of those times may have even been in the context of how his XW treated her. [There was also deception on that matter--the woman flat out lied that she liked SD and the minute they were married, all masks slipped and she made her true feelings known.]
First off, welcome!
First off, welcome!
Second, it doesn't help anyone to treat them like fragile glass because they've had bad things happen to them, but like many men on this board, your DH parents out of guilt. He feels bad because her mother died, and bad because he married someone who mistreated her, and somehow that translates in his mind to never doing anything that even slightly upsets her. So as a result, he has neglected his job as parent - to create a functional adult.
But none of that is your problem. I'd focus on making sure he knows that you are not okay with her living with you once she graduates from college. And that if he doesn't intend to make her pick up after herself, then you expect him to do it.
He does push her on some
He does push her on some things. It's true there's some guilt there. He's not going to go hard on tough love, like, Chop the vegetables or we're not eating tonight. (She would just microwave a mac and cheese anyway.) But I have often heard him in his office talking to her--for instance about the incident with the dog. He keeps repeating that she MUST understand how imperitave it was to hold onto the dog and she just keeps whining that she 'couldn't,' that she's so little (there's the retreating into acting like a child) etc.
He himself does get frustrated with her because this is how many of their conversations go--her giving all the reasons why she 'can't' do what he's telling her she has to do, what she has to change.
I think there are things he could have done differently and it's also true that kids will ultimately make their own choices and we can't always make them see the light and grow up. I often ask this question in looking at how my siblings and I dealt with our dysfunctional family of origin--they chose to stay in the system, and dysfunctional in their own ways. I chose to do everything in my power to help myself and heal myself. I can't answer why we chose differently.
I don't think I could bring myself to tell him she's not welcome to live here because I know he'd welcome my kids in a heartbeat. I don't really anticipate she's moving here anyway. And after the first few incidents, I did just quit picking up her dishes. They'd stay out on the deck table all night until one of them finally did something about it.
Fair enough. I do think you
Fair enough. I do think you will have to settle for civil and stop trying to make yourself like her. If that's going to happen, it will happen organically. And if he does allow her to live there, she needs to have rules and expectations, just as your kids should if they live there.
Not sure how her mother died, but she might be a lot like her.
Thank you for your answer,
Thank you for your answer, and I think you make a good point that I can't force myself to feel things.
Her mother had multiple genetic health problems. It was a long, slow, prolonged death through many hospital stays over a couple of years. I think she wants to retreat into childhood where she didn't have to deal with that. She dresses and wears her hair like a boy and we're both very sure it's because she associates being female with being physically weak and ill and wants to be like her father who is very strong, both physically and emotionally.
Her mother was a very good and loving mother, very involved with her in activities and school, etc. and SD loved her dearly so missing her is very, very profound and deep.
I'm sorry, she is 21 and
I'm sorry, she is 21 and "scared to cut vegetables"? Does your dh really think that is valid? Exactly what the hell is she going to do when she lives on her own? She is going to eventually live on her own, I hope?
Alllll of the issues you are dealing with are 100% because of how your dh coddles her. Yes. Her mom died. It is tragic, but by now it shouldnt affect her so profoundly that she is a B to people, can't pick up after herself or cut some damn veggies. How does she cut the meat on her plate?
Not OK.
He doesn't think it's valid
He doesn't think it's valid at all. He's also frustrated with her many fears. She currently has lived in her own apartment for two years. She microwaves pre-made meals. She cuts meat (which is usually chicken or a burger) with a butter knife. I don't know if she ever has steak that requires more than that.
Some people....
Some people are just "different" and unlikable. Its a fact. If you met her at work or somewhere else, you would think she's odd and you'd be polite but go your way. You will need to accept that's she's just not your type. Perhaps DH can change her but at her age, I doubt it. Hard to accept for both of you.
If you're treating her kindly, like you'd do to any relation, I wouldn't feel bad. You can't help how you feel, only how you act.
Thank you. I know how we feel
Thank you. I know how we feel is not always under our control. As I said, she was much more likeable at 13 and 14. Maybe I have some hope that she went severely downhill with the SM and will get away from some of that stuff.
Unfortunately, sometimes my irritation does show--for instance when she keeps playing the 'everybody knows THAT' game. I had a rather sarcastic response for her once. By the end of the Thanksgiving weekend, I was giving her short answers--not curt, just cut and dried. She knew I was annoyed, I'm sure, and I suppose I need to work on SAYING WHY.
Not being someone's type
I always had a rocky time with YSS now 54. Over the years, we've come to a hands-off but mutually respectful relationship. One day, I was thinking about it and realized I'm just not his type. Lol. He's acting correctly to me and that's the best he can do, I appreciate that. But we will never be close, we are just too way different.
Sounds like its similar with you and SD.
That may be. The sad thing is
That may be. The sad thing is, I think she genuinely wants me to like her and doesn't really get why I don't (I'm sure she can tell despite my effort to be polite at least.)
Yes this
Your SD sounds very much like Bratty McBratFace (SD24). In the beginning I tried very hard to 'like' her because I wanted a good relationship with her. Over the years I realized - I just don't like her. And, she's probably incapabe of having a successful relationship with me because of her significant mental health issues stemming from her poor relationship with BM.
You feel how you feel - if SD isn't your cup of tea then just be polite but move on. At least she seems capable of living on her own (even with microwaving meals and no chopping veggies LOL) and is doing well enough in college to consider grad school. So her issues may limit her future success but is certainly not handicapping her.
This is classic coddling from the bio parent.
My husband did the same thing including his family. Yes your exwife was batshit crazy, abusive and neglected your 3 kids but it doesn't excuse coddling them well into adulthood refusing to address behavioural issues or the facts with them.
my ss was 21 and we were at hubbys childhood home, ss21 took his aunts motorbike for a drive on their remote farm, lots of unsurfaced roads, he fell off motorbike no doubt driving as usual full speed not looking for potholes etc. His foot had a minor surface graze.
next morning it was hot humid weather and he had a blanket on, faking a sickie. Apparently he caught a fever from this minor graze. Not even that, on the way home he tells dad to stop by the pharmacy as he needed to buy bandages for a minor scrape/graze barely few cms long.
he walks out of the car like an old grandpa on walking cane, like a woman who just gave birth by emergency csection who's had 7 layers of fat/muscle/skin cut through (we have a genuine excuse to walk that slow) but ss walking like a woman who just got stitched up from a csection with that minor scrape pissed my husband off he called him out on that asking what the bloody hell was wrong and stop the over exaggeration, its a minor scrape and you're walking like an old man needing bandages etc.
when my ss refused to clean up after himself and made all kinds of bullshit excuses including that it was my job as a stay at home housewife with 2 young babies/toddlers to clean up after his lazy arse, i figured if my husband is gonna cave into the bullshit, i might as well give hubby more chores to do. I figured it'll be a matter of time, hubby has a rough day at work, comes home knowing i've had a usual full on day with 2 kids under the age of 2 and see ss did fuc* all.
Took about 1.5 yrs for that day, and it wasn't pretty. all ss 21 could way was mmmmmmm. Hubby told him that from now on everyday he was home, he took out the trash daily starting with tomorrow.
next day in the morning from work hubby messaged me asking if ss took out the trash yet- he hadn't. Hubby messaged me anothe 3-4 times that day asking same thing and answer was no. Hubby had at work messaged ss every 10-15 mins if he had emptied the trash. Ss21 as usual ignored those messages and ended up with over 20 messages asking if he'd taken out the trash. If only he'd done it when first asked, he wouldn't have gotten 20 messages.
when ss finally messaged hubby around 3pm that he'd emptied the trash, hubby didn't believe it and messaged me to confirm. That says alot when a father trusts his wife more than son from exwife.
hubby also required him to vacuum downstairs also, same thing had to message 20 times before he actually did it. Even then hubby had to message me to confirm he really did it. Hubby has realised he can do these things and should, he's just a lazy piece of shit who places me as a maid to serve him when his own mum was a useless egg donor who failed to parent/nurture or raise those kids and did no housework but somehow the foreign educated wife is placed at a lower level than bio mum. NOPE!! Not happening and my husband made it very clear to ss it will never be my job to clean up after his lazy arse
Thanks. This is very hopeful.
Thanks. This is very hopeful. I think with my H, he KNOWS she has problems, he does talk to her and try to get through to her, she's seeing a counselor, and sometimes, he's just unware--for instance with the not putting her dishes in the dishwasher thing. Or simply the issue of just pitching in, wiping off the counter now and again.
To be fair, SD does her own laundry, holds down a job, does well in college, has great savings. There definitely are things she does right and well. She doesn't get involved in drinking or drugs in anyway, lives a clean life.
At that age, there is no excuse to pretend being oblivious to
The household basics.
ss would play dumb as a 17.5 yr old that he didn't know he had to wash his dirty dishes (like since when did it ever become someone elses job??), my husband really started picking up on it with his son
Yeah, these weak daddies!
Yeah, these weak daddies!
Ex used to do ALL the housework at his home, as well as working a fulltime job and being on call. His daughter went to college part time, and didn't work.
In spite of that, he did all the cooking, cleaning, washing (including all HER washing). Even though she was at home 50 percent of the time and should have been doing it herself.
One night I went over there, and he was sitting on the couch folding a large pile of HER WASHING, including all her g strings etc. I went off at him, and pointed out how ridiculous it was that he was doing that while she ws upstairs in her room istening to music! He said that if he didn't fold it then it would be lying in a heap on the couch for days, and he didn't like a messy room.
I said, DON'T FOLD her washing - take it upstairs, open her door, and throw it in there!!
Sorry, getting sidetracked, lol. To the OP: my ex SD also lost her mum, when she was 16. No doubt at all that it is a terrible thing. But IMO it doesn't give these kids a licence to act like assholes to other people, and also use their loss as a reason why they can't do things.
And I am speaking from experience - my sons lost their Dad when they were teens. They are nice young men, who have managed to get their lives together, are mature well rounded and respect other people.
It's good to hear from
It's good to hear from someone with a similar situation.
I don't think SD uses her mother as an excuse--I think she was a socially awkward child to begin with. A friend of mine said she almost certainly has Asperger's. She's just completely tone deaf to how her behavior is coming across. With the dog incident I see it more as childish and immature than deliberately using her mother as an excuse or trying to be a jerk to me. I think she was scared of one of us blowing up at her -- not saying that's any excuse for what she did, she still manipulated rather than just apologize.
I do hope her counselor can help her with things and I think in reading these comments and seeing my own response to them, I feel I really have to find a way to TELL HER some of these things. I can guarantee she doesn't get why I'm responding to her as I am. She is very lacking in awareness.
Does your SD have a circle of
Does your SD have a circle of friends?
I only ask because you mention that she is socially awkward, and tone deaf as to how her behaviour affects other people.
If she has a steady circle of good friends, then I would argue that her behaviour towards you is selective. Because if she is a tone deaf know all towards everyone, then she certainly won't be popular and have many friends.
Just playing devils advocate here.....
My ex SD would make ridiculous claims that she "couldn't" do things....like putting her duvet inner back into the cover after it had been laundered "oh it's too hard" or take out the rubbish and recycling bins for collection "I can't do that".
When challenged about that, or anything, she would scream and cry, and inevitably bring it back to poor little me, I lost my Mum...
Yes, I think she has a circle
Yes, I think she has a circle of friends, but honestly, her dad describes them as sort of sad, messed-up people all with iffy to bad family situations. Or, as a friend of mine says, she's sort of 'king of the misfits.'
So in this case, I think her behavior might be similar across the board but she's hanging out with other people who may also be socially awkward and tone deaf.
She has anxiety and phobias. To an extent she also makes excuses. With the dog situation, the next time we needed her to get the dog out, she said, "Now that we've established I'm unable to walk the dog...." Her dad DID cut in and say, "No, you CAN walk the dog. You need to...." and outlined the steps to make sure the previous incident didn't happen again and made her go do it.
Good that your DH stepped in
Good that your DH stepped in and said to her that she CAN do that.
My ex would tell his daughter, "you should just try" etc, whereupon she would scream and shout "just stop hassling me, my life is already shit enough"
It sounds like your H is on board with trying to improve the situation. Good for you!
Yes, he knows she has
Yes, he knows she has problems. She has plenty of good points, but he knows these problems are there and he IS concerned about her. She lived with us all last summer and multiple times I heard him talking to her in his office about these things. And she argues with him and 'pushes back' on what he's saying, but he does keep pushing her. He WANTS her to do well in life.
I do think she's probably on the Asperger's spectrum. he and I have discussed that.
My SIL lost his mom at a
My SIL lost his mom at a tween age and it stunted him. He finally got counseling I his kid 20's and got some of it sorted out. I think she needs proper therapy to address the death and to grow up from that age. A good therapist should be able to help her do that. I'm afraid if it isn't addressed , you will suffer from her antics for a long time.
Also you are being misled by your husband. You can never replace her mother. You could be a mentor/ go to adult female someday but never her mother. He needs to drop that asap.
She has been seeing a
She has been seeing a counselor for three or four years. I do feel that some of her behavior is sort of being 'stuck' at the age of her mother's death. DH has said this is a very good counselor. She's not in his medical plan but he pays her out of pocket because she does well with SD.
Where does DH think his DD
Is going to have a real life.? If you can't cut vegetables, you can't cut meat chicken. Is she going to ever. EVER going to live on her own.? Or is DH going to take care of her . Forever ?
Maybe wife #2 wasn't that wrong.
Maybe she saw what the future look liked. Maybe she would not put up with all this dysfunction.
I'm talking about chopping
I'm talking about chopping raw vegetables with a sharp knife vs cutting burgers with a dull knife. She has been in her own apartment for a couple of years, holds two jobs, and goes to school full time. I'm assuming she makes all her meals out of pre-processed packages that can be microwaved or add-water-and-boil. Not that I'm arguing with you. That's not ideal nutrition and not going to work if she ever has a family to feed.
Oh, believe me, I GET why XW might have been annoyed. But it's no excuse for being flat out cruel, either, which she was. Or for not trying to deal with things in a more positive manner. I do believe that SD wants to be liked. As I said elsewhere, I suspect she's got Aspergers, as part of what's going on.
ETA: part of the issue is that XW flat out lied that she liked his daughter. He should have seen she didn't (that's another story) but future events made it clear she lied to him and never intended to have SD around at all. But she would have lost a very wealthy husband by telling him the truth about that and other vital matters. This woman was a gold-digger and as soon as she got the nice house pretty much wanted both of them out of her hair except to pay the bills and do the housework.
It's hard to feel like a
It's hard to feel like a mother to someone you met when they were a teen. Eapecialy if they have behavior problems. Go for polite and civil. Definitely speak up about issues that directly affect you, though. Your DH is delusional if he thinks you will just sprout motherly feelings at this stage and especially if you are not allowed to make decisions like a mother.
Actually, I think he'd be
Actually, I think he'd be fine with me talking to her about some of this stuff. I think he wants me to feel I can. And reading these reactions to her makes me feel that I really need to find a way to have a conversation with her, perhaps see it as trying to help her. Because I'm sure I'm not the only one responding to her this way.
I do agree it's going to be harder as a teen.
My only advice if you do try
My only advice if you do try to "parent" her is to start slow. DH may think he wants you to address things, but if he's like a lot of dads we see here, he may become defensive if you actually do.
Thank you. I am sure you are
Thank you. I am sure you are right. We often find our emotions reacting differently than our logic told us they would.
Weak Daddy and SD wanting attention
Your story sounds very similar to a SD I have. Sounds like your SD is always struggling for attention. She's 21 and is behaving childish. There needs to be a list of areas that you are struggling with, and discussed in private with dad. He is being enabling by doing nothing to correct your SD behaviors and allowing these things to continue. Nothing healthy will developed until he is on board. At 21 you could discuss with dad, agree on what behaviors need to change with SD and a written contract developed where she needs to do her dishes, meal prep, other expectations she must abide by, etc. she needs a dose of time to grow up and be an adult or be an adult else where. I understand the "being stiff" around her. She is lacking in respect for you. I understand and empathize. My SD is now 37, married and has a son. I still feel stiff whenever she comes to visit. Last visit, her son, who has major food allergies-she expected me to buy all her special groceries. This holiday visit She asked what I would be buying for son or should she bring some things. I responded, "bring son's foods with you." Time to adult for her and your SD. Hang in there. You must express your expectations. Express it, "while you're home, you need to do the dishes and it would be helpful to make dinner one night. So, what night would you like to do that?" Then zip your lip and just stare at her until the silence is unbareable but say nothing.