DH gonna talk to SD's - party aftermath - any advice?

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YSD invited DH and BM to a sorority house party a few weeks ago. OSD and our BD were invited as well (I wasn't). DH went and had a complete fall out against BM who was - no surprise to me- being mean as ever. She has a very toxic personality and her only goal in life seems to be to destroy any meaningful contact between SD's and DH (and in the slipstream me and our BD).

There have been times that SD's themselves talked to us about all te mainupalitve and destructive stuff BM pulled. But the last few months BM is back in control over the SD's, meaning for DH that he is blamed for all te contact problems: 'I do not contact you because you do not appreciate my relationship with BM' , that sort of stuff. This is going on for years and years, sometimes they see clearly the sh'''t BM pulls, sometimes they are completely in her 'web' and blame DH for all that is bad, usually not in words but by just not being in any sort of contact. It came down to we see them a few times a year and then play 'happy stepfamily' .

DH had this fall out at the party (he was really rude to BM) and had to recover from this himself. At the same time it dawned on him that this began years and years earlier - of course he apologized for the fall out immedliately. But is made him realise that he does not want this way of contact: it is always uncomfortable, never initiatiated by SD's and it always feels like we must be grateful they want to see us at all. No topic can be addressed, if he hardly sees them he tries to at least make those moments comfortable. We tried to really talk in the past but that always led to months and sometimes years of no contact at all.

I played no part in any of this (disengaged without knowing that existed, for self preservation, I could not handle it anymorge, for which I'm grateful). DH spoke earlier to BD which was good conversation. She understands and at the same time is sad that even the minor contact moments are unsure right now. SD's also hardly take an effort in contacting BD.

Tomorrow DH is gonna talk to YSD and OSD both. He only wants to say once what he has to say. It seems (DH called them before) SD's only wants to hear DH is a terribel man who cannot control himself and never invite to any occasion where BM is invited (birthdays, weddings). That way he will stay in his place as a sort of non functioning angry father.

DH does not want this anymore and he will say that to them. All this manipulation from BM is hard to explain to others, I find here on steptalk a lot of understanding and support so I wonder if any of you can relate to this of have any advice for the talk and the period after.

My therapist had great advice I think: ' he has to stay close to himself and be prepared for lots of mental pressure on him from SD's to keep things the way they are"

What does he want to

What does he want to accomplish here? Because, if his goal is to try to place blame on their mother? that's not a conversation that will end well. Clearly BM has been able to control the narrative that your husband is a big part of the problem. When he was overly rude to her in a public setting? He reinforces that. It's like she may be the little sibling in the back seat with an older brother.. poking quietly at him till he "blows up".. no one saw her aggravating him.. all they saw was the blow up.. but like our parents never saw that dynamic.. your SD's are very unlikely to see BM's part in it. Especially when she likely presents herself as caring and supportive of them.

So, my suggestion would be for him to figure out how to attend these events without interracting with his EX.. as much as possible. not be rude.. but not engage with her to as much extent as possible. If she says something cutting.. he can just "not respond" and walk away.. not give her the response she wants.. that's all she wants is his reaction right? you take her power when you take away his reaction to her!

And.. if he truly can't control his response.. perhaps he needs to see his daughters in places that his EX won't be? I would have thought a large sorority function would have allowed for plenty of buffer between them.. but I guess not enough..

It may not be fun.. but taking the high road.. not letting someone else "get" to you.. is usually the best way forward.

DH is aware of this, it's uncovered an unhealthy situation

Thanks for you answer, DH is fully aware he took the bait and that this was not wise. That's why he had to recover. After more than 30 years of not taking the bait - just to keep in contact with his children - he now realised this has been going on for years.

His fall out - completely unusual for him - shook him up completely and took him through all the stages of guilt, shame etc. It seemed that SD's and BM where sort of waiting for him to make a faux-pas so now they have a real reason to blame the bad contact on him. the whole thing felt like a set up. Even the part where I was nog invited was part of that: first thing BM asked 'where is Mar", as if she did not know...

The whole thing uncoverd a very unhealthy situation for him from which I was already disengaged. He just wants to tell them that the BM controlled narrative (DH is a difficult angry man) is not his reality and it certainly is not the reality he wants to be in when he is in contact with SD's. He has no idea how this will play out in practice, it's not wise to make bold statements on that because then he certainy will stay the bad guy. He simply does not know at this point.

My best advice is that an

My best advice is that an apology is best when it is sincere and does not try to excuse poor behavior by blaming others.

If he feels that he needs to apologize further for his behavior that day.. that is fine.

I would stick with saying "I'm sorry that I was not on my best behavior that day. I will try to maintain my composure in the future, no matter what frustrations I may be facing. It wasn't fair of me to put a pall on your day and potentially embarass you."

I don't think he will get anywhere trying to explain that their mother is manipulating situations.. it just will fall on deaf ears and will cheapen any sincereness in his attempts to do better in the future.

He's not gonna blame BM of course, no use

As you say, that't not working. So yeah that will be the line plus he will say the contact as it is now is very uncomfortable - not the fall out, that speaks for itself and sure extra apologies are in order, no mistake there. But the contact as existing for years now is not anywhere near good. They will probably agree there. And surely he will leave out BM's role. If there is any they may or may not come to that conclusion themselves.

Tread Carefully

As ESMOD asked, what does he want to accomplish? His chances are slim to none that he will change the kids' mind on anything that included and/or concerns the BM. There's been trouble and PAS going on for years. He apologized. If he feels he needs to do that again, I'd suggest going with ESMODs words, keeping it simple and about him.

And for future interactions, stay away from things when BM is in attendance. If it's something he must attend, then sit away from the family. If his kids want to see/talk with him, they can walk over to his seat. Its unfortunate (I wish I could think of a stronger word) but when a BM sets out to destroy her children's father (and yes,this can be reversed), they typically succeed. He can only hope that his kids will "wake up" in adulthood. But don't even count on that.

Best to you both.

Your DH must reflect on reality.

The fact is, he does not have a good relationship with his daughters and probably never will. They should already be developing a relationship with him on their own, as adults in their own right. BM should not even be part of that equation anymore but she obviously is. That's a big red flag and something your DH will ever be able to change. It is what it is.

So. Next step is for DH to man up and figure out what is the most healthy relationship he can have with them yet prevent it from poisoning both you and more importantly, your DD18. Neither you nor your BD deserve to be excluded, hurt and overlooked by these nasty young women and their harpy mother.

DH needs to fully mourn the relationship he does not have, and will never have, with his daughters. His outburst at the party is a symptom of that grief and sorrow which he now seems to recognize. He needs to move on to the next step which is acceptance.

This is what he has to accept: He will never have a close relationship with his daughters and they will never be willing to put any effort in to a relationship with him.

They have been taught that he has no value as their father. None. He needs to accept that fact and move on with the rest of his life. This is the sad reality of what Parental Alienation is about and BM has done it very successfully. It is next to impossible to un-do what a mother tells her children year after year after year. BM has poisoned the well (which is their FATHER) and these girls will not ever fully trust him nor open up to him.

We were in a similar situation and it does not get better. We hoped when SD went to college she would change. She didn't. We hoped when she started her career and lived on her own she would change. She didn't. We hoped when she got married she would change. She didn't. We hoped when SD had children she would change. She didn't.

This is the power that toxic parents (especially mothers) have when they decide to use their children's hearts and minds as weapons against the other parent.

My SO has faced reality and realized that in many ways, his daughter died a long time ago. BM made sure of that. The little girl and tween he helped raise and loved is no more. BM taught her that SHE is the only parent who matters and molded SD into a self-absorbed adult who will continue to dismiss her father.

Your DH must realize that seeing his daughters a couple of times per year, on a very superficial basis, is about as good as it's going to get. That's probably for the best.

Wow such good points.

Your well thought out answer really resonated with me. I've had to do this with my own children lay to rest the children they were and build new relationships with them as adults. This has worked for me, I feel I do have pretty balanced and good relationships with them. My DH on the other hand has what you describe, a lot of guilt, enmeshment and codependency. It is next to impossible to un-do what a mother tells her children year after year after year. "BM has poisoned the well (which is their FATHER) and these girls will not ever fully trust him nor open up to him" yes he's closer with some of his children than others but all of them exhibit this. When I came into his life I refused to participate in the triangulation and enmeshment that is what has helped my marriage be healthy and also helped DH begin to see the toxic relationship he previously had with his kids and ex.

Exactly - refuse to participate.

That way the parent is solely responsible for the relationship with their adult children. As long as it doesn't interfere with YOUR life, finances, and mental/emotional health. I've found it's best to just disengage completely.

I refuse to beat my fists against the machine called Manipulated Adult Stepkids trying to humanize them. I will only come away a bloodied failure.

DH gonna talk to SD's - party aftermath - any advice?

Wow Wow Wow To tired for drama

you have hit the nail on the head

Use the time to lay out new

Use the time to lay out new boundaries. After reflection, he realized that nothing good comes of these visits set up like this and from now on ...... this will happen..... ( his new boundaries). He will give them time to think it over and it's up to them to set up the next visit. They play be his rules now or they won't see him. The abuse needs to end. The drama triangle can't happen if he pulls out. Life goes on.

I agree with

Survivingstephell and 2Tired4drama. I think your H should own his bad behavior at the party and apologize, then lay out his boundaries and leave the rest up to the SDs. Everyone is an adult now; if they want a relationship with him, it needs to be one of equals.

If he is not invited, or

If he is not invited, or is invited in a diminished role, to events in the future, he should not be paying for said events.

Cut the cord

This is tough...BM and the like have a lot of strange power and control. I have experienced the aura of dysfunctional mom who is extremely toxic and very obviously so. You're doing the right thing steering far away from this mess. Unfortunately I thin your husband has reached a frustration point and it might be ok just to go radio silent. Seriously, if the SDs are not acting right and they use the radio silence as a "threat" and thats how he stay in line with this toxic mix of characters then...simply don't let it be so important. That is easier said then done, but he might have to let go. They are grown. And this behavior is horrendous. The only way to take power back is simply not play the game. But that does mean he has to draw back and be ok with getting no communication. Take your extra free time and indulge one another.

Talk as expected, no insights nor change, tough indeed

DH had his talk, short version: it ended with OSD telling him that the contact between them can only improve when he starts accepting their relationship with their mother: BM might be a bit manipulative sometimes but is also very loving and they have good times. SD's judgement is good enough to deal with this. DH cannot see her as a loving mother but that is his reality".

Well, I hear all the therapist talk in here. They do not see for a minute that BM is torpeding contact between SD's and DH, they do not see the impact of BM's toxicity on their relationship. DH HAS been accepting their mother for 30 years without a word and see where that brought him. Nowhere, contact is minimal and uncomfortabele. Ik have been excluded for no reason, BD contact is minimal as well. But as expected this is all DH' fault.

Frustrating but clear. 2tiredfordrama, this is exactly what we are going through.. every major life event we're hoping for insights. When YSD went to University she went to live in another city, one month ago she decided to move back in with BM.

just talked to my dh , my name came up as well, I said something about their mother once in a failed attempt to restore something of my once very warm and good bond with YSD . 2 years ago . That is why they do not feel close to me . I feel so much anger and hurt now myself. Pffff,

In other words,

it's the status quo.

Adult SD expect their father to be a doormat, and cower and comply with anything THEY demand - to include his acknowledgement that BM is a "loving mother?" That's just crazy.

Refuse to drive down Crazy Street anymore. Pull over, park your car, get out and walk back to Reality Road.

You need to go full-on disengagement which means no more discussion about SDs. If he brings them up (or something they said about you) refuse to be drawn in. If he talks about them, don't say anything other than "Oh" or "Well" or "Interesting" then immediately change the subject. Walk out of the room if you have to. Don't ask any questions about them.

The hardest part is going to be your BD18. These are her half-sisters and I can only imagine she feels incredibly hurt by the way they treat her. Yet it won't change and in fact, you have to guard against the SDs poisoning your BD against her dad and even worse ...YOU, her mother. If they haven't started this yet, they may.

this. when they realize Dad

this. when they realize Dad isn't taking any more bait they will move on to manipulating your daughter to get her to hate both of you. warn her now. then all three of you step away from the toxivc mess. If his daughters want a relationship w/ him, they can start working towards one. This does not seem to be the path they'll take so make plans, keep busy, step completely away.

^^^THIS^^^

Is exactly what will happen. It's the cult of BM. Prepare your daughter so you don't lose her to it.

Relational aggression.

Relational aggression. Google it.

I honestly didn't feel like

I honestly didn't feel like there would have been any other outcome than this. And.. the words his daughter said are pretty much spot on anyway.. the message that they love their mother.. and he has to accept that they will love her.. and that she is important to them etc..

Yes.. the reality may be that their mother is not playing fairly... but the only real response he should have said was " Yes, I do accept that you love your mother and that she is part of your lives... but I would hope you would see that as a reciprocal expectation of you mother that I am in your life as well and love you too."

I'm not sure why saying something abou their mother was even part of your attempt to heal a rift with your YSD though.. whether you think her mom had something to do with the rift or not.. it was only bound to make her defensive and protective of her mom if you brought her up. The relationship with your Skids should be on it's own merit from your POV.. and for that reason.. I can see how bringing her mom into it may have been unproductive towards your goals.

It's like I mentioned before.. your DH needs to have his relationship with his kids.. without bringing his EX into the situation.. and if she is present at events? he needs to not engage with his EX. Yeah.. it's hard. she snipes at him.. he needs to be able to brush it off and look the other way.. because him causing a scene with their mom is exactly what proves the mother's point that HE is the problem.

A good retort. "Your mom should respect my love for you, too"

Yet unfortunately, imbalance is a reflection of dysfunction. When a parent's active goal is to minimize the other parent, the skids don't see fair play as part of the equation.

I don't think there is anything productive in bashing a kid's parent, no matter their age. But when everyone are adults, it may depend on context and rebuttal may be necessary.

If my adult SD came to me and said, "My mother told me to watch out for you as you were untrustworthy." I would absolutely defend myself with facts: "I have never had more than a passing word or two with your mother so I don't understand why she would make such an untruthful accusation against me. I've never done anything to her which would cause her to make a statement about my personal integrity - which I will always defend."

As Rags often says, there is nothing wrong with throwing facts at out-and-out B.S. when it is warranted. That may have been the case with Mar, when two years ago she attempted to speak with SD about an issue related to BM.

It's a fine line between

It's a fine line between defending yourself against a statement that is attributed to the BM and us trying to bring their mom into the conversation as an "excuse" for how things went off the rails..

In your example, it's abolutely fair to explain that you don't understand how BM could make that statement since she hasn't had any real personal experience with you.

However.. if someone was trying to make amends and said "You know, we always got along until your mom made it her personal mission to tell lies about us and did XX to sabotage any chance of a relationships". That's when you may see that SK get defensive and protective of their parent.. who they most likely DO love.. even if they know they aren't perfect and don't experience the same dysfunction from them the EX or their new partner did. A better way might be to say something like "I always missed the close relationship that we enjoyed the first few years. I know that a lot of water has gone under the bridge and I'm sure that there were a lot of missed opportunities for good communication and many misunderstandings on both sides that led to our relationship not being what it was. I would very much like to move forward as adults and have a better relationship on that level" (no mention of BM's lies or manipulations.. or the perception of them).

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Just damned.

I get your point, ESMOD and I don't think anyone here is saying to get into verbal fisticuffs with adult kids about the other parent. Even if missteps were made on both sides, it does take two to meet in the middle. But I would say that these issues are not "water under the bridge" because the skids bring it up whenever they can, and practice withholding as a weapon against the parent.

Oftentimes, skids do not see that being reasonable and reflective is ALSO their role as mature adults. Instead of asking themselves what kind of son/daughter are they? they want to keep pointing out a parent's failings. They still see themselves as childlike, needing to be placated. This is the result of years and years of inculcated PAS and making the other parent the "enemy."

That sh!t runs deep and even Freud would be hard-pressed to fix it. If you try to have an adult conversation with them to present your viewpoint and a healthy way forward, they don't want to hear it. If you ask for their input it's the same old propaganda messages they've learned at the hem of the alienating parent.

As Mar said, "We tried to really talk in the past but that always led to months and sometimes years of no contact at all." That's plainly manipulative. Mar could try your tact and use your words as an example, but I am certain the SDs will immediately resort back to inserting and defending the BM in some form or fashion, seeking their father to (once again) admit his perceived failings.

How long in life does this need to go on? Honestly, it's beyond tiring. These are adults! What do they do in the workplace if they have an issue with someone? Tell the boss they refuse to go in to work until their coworker continues to regularly apologize for a comment they made during a work disagreement YEARS ago?

It's not the apology they seek, it's having power over their parent. That's why I believe that disengagement is the only tenable solution.

P.S. FWIW, my SO and his family members have attempted heart-to-heart conversations with SD about loving her, missing her, wishing she would be in contact or respond to them, etc. and each time she sat in sullen silence and said nothing. And continues to ignore them as she has for decades now.

just talked to my dh , my

So YSD is holding this against you and thats her pathetic excuse ,amazing how they come up with some shite and turn it all back on you ..Let it go disengage dont have any of them near you for your own mental health this will never end or EVER get any better ,they have been reared like this and its always going to be someone else fault leave them all to it .

Reading your responses here I do have a question.

Or get the feeling your DH may be taking jabs at their mother. Is that the case? I know when one parent is very dysfunctional and the other is not it is soooo tempting to want the even grown adult children to "pick me". Perhaps he needs to commit to the skids that he will no longer bring up or associate with their mom.

It does sound like he has sucked it up and put up with this for a long time. (As my DH did) it was very difficult for my grown skids when I said "uhmmm no I'm not coming to every family get together if your ex is there and you shouldn't either, she treated you horribly throughout your marriage and divorce and I simply do not want to be reminded of that" He began setting boundaries and they didn't like it. He still lapses, it's not perfect, he still feels the need to pay for their get togethers etc. I told him at the time "my kids get together with their dad fairly often, should I start helping pay for their meals with him?"

Let your children have their own relationship with their other parent separately from yours. It does sound like there are some control issues and enmeshment going on, it takes time to re-establish new boundaries especially when it has gone on so long. He neeeds to remove his ex wife from his relationship with his kids. Full stop. That means not asking leading questions or anything about her and her life and stop seeing her casually or communally. My skids and my DH struggled when I banned the ex from anything hosted at our house including Xmas. We hosted for one year and some grumbling about them having to plan separate time with their mom got back to us so, that put an end to Xmas parties at our house with the skids. I think they thought their dad would role over. DH knew it was a hard boundary for me and he had guilt because he had gone along with so much before even when it made him miserable, we now see it for what it is and I have almost completely disengaged from them.

Edit: just read ESMOD response and realize I'm saying the same thing. I obviously agree. One needs to be careful in what they say about the childrens other parent no matter what it is about. I'm working on this towards my skids as well, I need to remember HE is their father and loves them as unconditionally as I do mine and I probably need to keep my mouth shut about them more often lol

My SO asks no questions about BM.

Never talks about her with SD and certainly has never said anything negative. And he (and I) have always been civil and formally polite to BM anytime we've seen her at events. Still didn't make a difference.

Oh I bet.

Thats when you have to realize THEY have the relationship with their dad that THEY want, whether it is to guilt trip or justify poor decisions they make. It only recently came to our awareness that BM still blames DH for any mishap that befalls her. She actually blamed him for getting lost one time on the way to a family get together. "He sent me the wrong directions" in a group thread with the same directions to everyone else who found it just fine his kids also played him up a bit about how terrible mom was meanwhile they are going out of their way to have a relationship with her while treating DH like an afterthought. It's weird.

Yes, the trap.

Skids may say something negative/critical about BM, even in a joking way. This is a trap! Under no circumstances should a comment be made as it WILL come back and bite you - often years later!

SD did this a few times (saying things like, "Mom is so stupid, she did blah, blah blah.) and both SO and I sat absolutely silent and made no comment, not even a "Hmmm." Stayed silent for about four or five seconds and then changed the subject.

When my SD's ever complained

When my SD's ever complained about their mom.. my standard was always.

"I'm sure your mother is doing what she thinks is best.. or is doing the best that she can"

I really tried to be very neutral about her like that.

Note that saying "She and your father did the best that they could".. doesn't mean that the kids may not have some valid complaints.. but that we all do the best that we can.. even if it isn't "enough" or sometimes even the "wrong" thing.. we just all do the best we can.. as they get older I think they "get" that more.

Agree...we all do the best we can.

That is why I mentioned adult skids must also be reflective and take ownership of their behavior. They should also realize that parents may have valid complaints about things skids have done and said AS ADULTS.

For example, if an adult child treats the parent's spouse with disrespect and causes strife between the couple it is rare that you see them coming forward and saying, "I'm really sorry. I realized what I said/did crossed boundaries and I should not have come between you and your spouse. I would not like someone to do that to me and my spouse. I hope you accept my apology and going forward I will respect your marriage."

I certainly haven't seen many posters here on STalk who have had that experience.

Why is there this double-standard? I guess it's just part of the new parent/child relationship, where errors and apologies are one way streets from parents to adult kids.

"I am sorry for my outburst at the Sorority event."

"Please realize that I lost my cool after years of lies, manipulations, and toxic pressure. It will not happen again.

Going forward I want you both to know that I am your dad. I have always been your dad, and I always will be your dad. I will always be dad to your sister as well. Above that, I am Mar's DH and she is my DW. I reguest, and I will also demand, that you two recognize that and do not put me in a position of having to pick between the two of you as my daughters and Mar as my wife. I would never and will never do that with you and your equity life partners.

Your mother is the mother of my children but she is not and never will again be my wife. I hope that you have a positive relationship with her. However, I will not tolerate the transfer of any toxicity to the relationship that the three of us have together or that my wife and your younger sister have with you. Keep that in mind as we navigate how we move forward from here. I will not discuss your mother with you unless you bring it up. Neither will I tolerate any manipulation or toxicity by her to you, me, your sister, or my wife. I will not inject any toxicity or manpulation into our relationship or the relationship you have with your mother."

DH needs to fire this across their bows and adjust accordingly. Appologize, state and admit his mistake, then clearly state, set, and enforce the boundaries.

Script semi generic statements to adjust for the most likely/common XW manipulations. This helps minimize the risk of losing his cool going forward.

Going forward he needs to speak calmly with direct intent. When XW pulls hewr shit, he needs to calmly bare her ass by telling her that she is being inappropriate, she needs to reset and calm down, and that he will not tolerate (fill in the blank) from her. PERIOD! DOT!

Scripting is a tool I use often when I have regular interface with difficult or volatile people. My default is not dominating aggression so mentally preparing, scripting, and adapting as an interface unfolds helps me mitigate associated risks and managing the situation far better than situations where I do not have the mental and emotional grounding/preparation time.

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DH gonna talk to SD's - party aftermath - any advice?