I recently heard a doctor talk about narcistic people
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It was interesting because he was saying one of the things they did was project what they would do on you. It always has to do with them.
I found this interesting in that I had long noticed this with SD. Everything has to revolve around her. Always about her or her feelings get hurt and she cries, which upsets my H.
It gave me a log more insight into dealing with that type of person.
What do you know about narcistic people?
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They want to believe them
They want to believe them center of attention and will do whatever they can to be the main focus of an activity or conversation. If focus strays, they open a big ol' can of pout. They are always the victim and never the one doing wrong to others. They suck!
"They can make different
"They can make different choices on how to behave and treat others. They choose not to. That is all anyone needs to know about them."
^^^^^100% TRUE -
It does my head in that so many people are willing to give them chance after chance, and make-up excuse after excuse.
Yes.
It does my head in that so many people are willing to give them chance after chance, and make-up excuse after excuse.
They are just as sick and dysfunctional.
We are all dysfunctional. What counts is what we choose to do about it. Deny it or work to become the best version of ourselves?
Thank you!
New mantra...mentally 'flush' those who deserve it!
Yes.
You dodged a bullet for sure! And hit the jackpot with your current wife. You are winning! I used to say, "I can't believe (Insert name here) would do that!" I really was naive. The older I get I have learned many people will do whatever it takes to get ahead, to save money, etc.
They don't earn it with decency so they learn to make it on their own, or they learn to be decent. Odds are not on them learning to be decent.
Isn't that the truth? I recently learned of something YSD daughter did that totally turned my opinion around. It wasn't outright horrible but it was very insensitive, very immature, and very hurtful to her father (and I). And the rest of 'the family' went along with it, except DH. Fast forward, she just had a negative life event. My first instinct was to XYZ, because I always XYZ to show my support. I decided I am done showing support of any kind. She is now on my list of be cordial and move on. Yes, I flushed her too. Because I found out she really isn't decent; like many, she looks out for herself only. Thank you, no.
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I did a whole lot of flushing this weekend. I feel like I should have done it a long time ago.
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The sparkle is blinding! Both in the toilet bowl and in my eye!
It was StepTalk that helped
It was StepTalk that helped me understand more about narcissism and made the light bulb go off regarding OSD.
Aside from brief mention of narcissism in a psychology class almost forty years ago, I knew nothing about it. I did know something was off with my DH's older daughter, but everyone in his family ignored her behavior. In this cognitive dissonance, I questioned my own perception of OSD - until I read so many ST posts describing similar behaviors as examples of narcissism. MIND. BLOWN.
It's been very freeing to know that there's nothing to be done and no reason to try with such a person. She is who and what she is, and I don't have to suffer for that.
I am trying to recall all he
I am trying to recall all he said, but boy did he nail my SD to a tee. No matter, what, when, where, etc. she has to be the center of attention and get everything. They lie so much they no longer know what the truth is about a matter.
I do remember his final warning - stay away from them, you won't win and they will use and take advantage of you any way they can. He made mention of how conmen are narcistic so they have no problem doing what they do.
Speaking of that the SD called the other day. I heard the call, knew wlho it was from and let it go to voice mail. Anyway, at the end of whatever she was blabbing about, she had some gruge going, she said that "we" didn't have to call her back if "we" didn't want to (the ole try to make you feel guilty and her the victim narcistic ploy). So, to solve having a problem with him about her 'cause who know what her problem was or what she wanted for free since she didn't get patio set, I just deleted the message....gone. I certainly don't want to deal with the narcisism she was even showing then.
They always have to "win" as
They always have to "win" as they see winning. They trianguate and manipulate. They live in a delusional world of their own making. They constantly lie.
Rags - Pegged her. Right now
Rags - Pegged her. Right now she is "under her rock" but trying to emerge and play victim again. Look what YOU didd to poor her. YOU owe her.
The major narcissist I have
The major narcissist I have the misfortune of knowing likes when people inflict pain on her. In fact, even when people do not, she says they do. Narcissists love playing the victim and "making" others the aggressors. She likes it because she portrays herself as the poor suffering [fill in the blank...mother, daughter, sister, wife, neighbor] and it feeds the disgusting portrait she has painted of herself. She has literally been found sobbing in a shop owned by a friend of her daughter's (the shop owner really doesn't know the narcissist all that well), telling (vomiting) the sad, sad story of why [fill in the blank] won't talk to her. lol.
IMO, the worst thing you can do to a narcissist is IGNORE them, ERASE them, shut them out of your mind.
Oh, Rags, there are a couple
Oh, Rags, there are a couple people I'd like to sic you on just so I could watch.*ROFL*
Yes!
IMO, the worst thing you can do to a narcissist is IGNORE them, ERASE them, shut them out of your mind.
And...it's the BEST thing to do for yourself!
I just read about this
I just read about this characteristic of narcissists! Narcissists will turn others into abusers in order to justify their victimhood. They do this by using "coded" language to cause their targets to feel that somehow they've wronged the narcissist. They'll even cause the target to feel hate and become angry towards him so that they'll literally start to victimize the narcissist which gives him what he wants. I was thinking about how SS is the only one I feel as resentful as I am towards him. I do not generally feel that way about people. I've felt guilty about that, but after reading this article, I wonder how much SS has played a part in instilling exactly the kind of reactions in me that would fit into his narrative. But I think SS reserves the bulk of his projections for dh. I have often thought that dh acts like he's under some kind of spell when it comes to SS. He feels guilty a lot, and bends over backwards to give everything SS wants. He snarls at me if he thinks I'm harming SS, which in his perception I'm doing all of the time when in truth it's SS who has been the ultimate bully towards me.
I've always thought that BM is definitely a narcissist, and maybe borderline as well. But I'm only just starting to think that SS is one too. I don't think you can officially diagnose someone until they're 18 yo or older. Over the fall and spring, he was deflated and laying low because his friends were gone, and he had few to keep him "supplied". But now that SS's friends are back, it's like he's filling up on their "supply" and SS has been strutting around shirtless (ugh!!!!!), and acting like Prince Royalty. I think this past fall and spring were when he really played up his victim card. He hung about the house every weekend, clung to his dad, and put on a pouty, hurt face whenever I wasn't warm enough which caused DH to get mad at me. But now that SS' friends are around, SS has ghosted his dad for the most part. I just hope to goodness that DH actually sees the duplicity this time.
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He snarls at me if he thinks I'm harming SS, which in his perception I'm doing all of the time when in truth it's SS who has been the ultimate bully towards me.
This behavior would be really hard to accept. Do you bring it up at a later time and talk it through?
Thanks for picking up on that
Thanks for picking up on that detail. I've been flashing back to years of DH lashing out at me for perceived harms to SS. These "harms" are just gross misperceptions of what was going on, and DH has more recently copped to them. For example, blaming me for SS treating me badly because I was disengaged and not sufficiently warm (and why do you think I had to disengage??!!). Dh has acknowledged some of his unfair treatment, but it has taken me all of this time to realize that his attacks on me were not fair. But since I was raised by a narcissist, it all seemed to make sense at the time. But never again am I ever going to take responsibility for SS' toxicity.
Yes!
Once you 'see' it you can't unsee it; I am glad you know you deserve better...because you do!
I am also glad your husband was able to take accountability. If it happens again, stay strong friend.
Thanks Trudie!
Thanks Trudie!
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The noxious narcs are not the only ones who need to feel the pain. Those that support them and facilitate their crap with some naive misplaced care and loyalty and who are condoning and facilitating the narc's crap are only slightly better than the POS narcs. Maybe even worse. These people created the narc, they support the narc, they facilitate the narc being a narc.
I understand this all too well. Absolutely worse in my opinion.
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I can hear it now, "Well I never....!!!" There may be fireworks!
You have that correct. They
You have that correct. They cannot stand being ignored. It drives them nutz so you have to make sure you fortify the fort and batten down the hatches because they will be back even crazier than before.
There are many Facebook
There are many Facebook groups/pages about narcissists with all kinds of good information and support.
Interesting...
...topic! I would guess that most of us here have dealt with a narcissist. Why is it they seem to pop up more in step life? Has anyone else noticed this?
Narcissism is ego driven, but interestingly narcissists are fragile and insecure. They are bidding to be admired and validated...at a cost to their 'victims'. They are unable to feel empathy. They are unable to acknowledge how they hurt people; in fact, they turn the 'hurt' they've inflicted around and project it onto their victim by playing the victim. They are relentless liars and deny, deny, deny. As Rags said...FLUSH them!
I remember the first thing my husband told me about OSD: "She lies, she steals, and she has to be the center of attention." He said how he could only handle her in small doses and that he was not comfortable even having her in his home. He would have to hide all valuables and alchoholic beverages. He also had to install a lock on a room that was used for storage. She was all that...and MORE!!! Never, in my personal life or career, have I met someone as 'sick' and dysfunctional as she is. When she started her one-sided war with me, he didn't deny her behavior but he did cut her way too much slack. So, yes, there was definitely some dysfunction on his part too. I would kindly and gently break the behavior down so that he could 'see' and understand the full impact. I think he was deconditioned to her nonsense. I like to use the example of bad behavior starting at 1/100; it gradually increases over time. When I came into the picture she was full throttle 100/100 and I was her target. I believe she met her match; I don't think that had ever happened before. It enraged her further. I did not play her games; I don't give nonsense and I don't accept it. She drove her relationship with her father into the ground with her behavior and the lies she told. She had a choice...make things right or no contact would ensue. It shows how sick she is that she would choose 'hate' for someone she doesn't even know over 'love' for her father. I am sure she doesn't understand the consequences are on her, nor does the rest of his family...they are just as sick. They share the opinion that it is big, bad Trudie's fault. Yes, I have flushed them too.
In my professional opinion, she fits right in with Cluster B in the DSM - 5. Fascinating reading for those of you who are interested in that type of content. I would be willing to bet you may 'see' someone you know....
I read a terrifying article
I read a terrifying article about the Dark Triad personality, "a trio of negative personality traits—narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy—which share some common malevolent features," and another article (I think it was from the Atlantic?) about how common personality disorders actually are (whereas they used to be viewed as uncommon, I believe).
Borderline is a huge one when step life is high-conflict and toxic, I believe.
Whenever I hear people say
Whenever I hear people say things like, "Other people’s actions are neutral, it’s what we think about them and what we make them mean that dictates how we feel." I think, I guess they have never met someone with a Dark Triad Personality because there is nothing neutral about their actions.
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Right! Sometimes there is no other way than negative to view a person's words or actions.
2 Questions:
1. Why are they trying to cover for someone else?
2. Why are the putting the onus of interpretation on themself?
Or, have they just never encountered this type of person and don't understand?
I like to believe in honesty and goodness of intention, but with some you just 'know' they are not on that wavelength.
These are all excellent
These are all excellent questions. Some people will stick up for a narcissist that they don't even personally know. That one is a head scratcher. Those that put the onus of interpretation on themself - perhaps they have control issues and lean towards narcissism themselves? And I do think some people have just lived really charmed lives or sheltered lives and are genuinely ignorant about narcissists.
I've also read some articles
I've also read some articles which throws in "Sadism" as a fourth trait, leading to "the dark tetrad" personality. Interestingly, the dark triad/tetrad personality is often correlated with "virtuous victimhood:" Somehow feeling like a righteous victim helps fuel a sense of entitlement. It's like 'I wouldn't steal from anyone. But if someone steals from me, I'll steal mine back and then some, and I would have the right!' These folks feel that they have a right to take and "get back" at people because life has been unfair to them, and since they're good, they are pure and blameless even while they're harming others! (They only hit back in self-defense.) https://www.psypost.org/dark-personality-traits-linked-to-virtuous-victi...
I definitely feel that SS is all of these things. He tells people that I am an awful human being who has always excluded him, and condemned him even though his only crime was harmless teen angst on a few occasions. It doesn't matter if DH reminds SS of the litany of activities, gifts, and money and resources I devoted early on in my relationship with SS. We have photos on social media still today evidencing this. But in SS's mind, he literally doesn't remember any of that. It wouldn't fit into his narrative of me being the villain and him being the innocent victim. This is most def not the case. If you hadn't read any of my posts about SS, it includes acounts of how he's stolen multiple times from his parents, lies, bullied his classmates, mistreats the dog, etc., etc.
Wanted to qualify that "victimhood" is not at all the same as being an actual victim. Victimhood as an identification is a personality issue and not a result of an event that can and should be rectified.
I understand and agree with
I understand and agree with your sentiment. Two people can be victimized, but the person that develops pathological victimhood decides to incorporate being a victim into an identity which then sets up a pattern of entitlement and allows them to excuse bad behaviors. Someone who is truly struggling with actual victimization wouldn't "exploit" being victimized to acquire stuff and harm others. I think that the research shows that this strategy in psychopathic people goes under the radar because most people actually have empathy, which is the reason why the strategy works so well. If you ask for money on gofundme because you're down and out, you're a lot less likely to get money than if you ask for money because you're down and out, but it is due to being robbed as you were on the way to your charity work, or because you have a terminal illness in which you suffered greatly. Part of the dark triad/tetrad personailty also involves lying, so they would tell a sob story to get what they want even if not true.
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Wanted to qualify that "victimhood" is not at all the same as being an actual victim. Victimhood as an identification is a personality issue and not a result of an event that can and should be rectified.
This makes me think of OSD; like your SS, facts do not matter to her. She believes I "stole her Daddy" so she needs to make me pay by destroying relationships and turning people against me. Only she isn't smart enough to realize that the people who believe her nonsense are not people I would choose to have relationships with. Perhaps I should be grateful that they have shown their true colors?!
Yeah, she's only righting a
Yeah, she's only righting a wrong, right? If you hadn't been bad, she wouldn't need to destroy you. Meanwhile, the true situation is probably that she has all sorts of angst which prompted her to depict a hostile force in the world that would make her bad feelings make sense. If it wasn't you, then it would have been someone else who she could plug into her narrative.
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Exactly! DH said he believed she was "trying to assert her dominance over you'". Who does that? Why not just bond over our shared love for someone who is special in both of our lives? That would have been easier and so much more productive. We both believe it would not have mattered who he married, that the end result would be the same.
I consider personality
I consider personality disorders to be "types of a$$holes." There are people with legit mental health conditions. No doubt there. And as far as personality disorders, i know there is a genetic predisposition to emotional dysregulation. Upbringing makes a difference as well, as far as how a person was raised, childhood trauma, etc. A lot of personality disorders are "passed down", in that people with them come from families with a lot of them. Behavior is a complex thing. BUT - understanding them and empathizing does not mean that i will put up with/allow myself to be harmed by these a-holes!
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Well stated!
Boy are you right about the
Boy are you right about the pseudo science and the boom of people graduating with social science degrees. That perpatrates a lot of this BS in my mind.
About 10 years ago there was a segment on Dateline about a young lady who claimed her mother was abusing her, called the police and the Mother ended up with charges pressed against her.
The story behind it was that the daughter 16, was out of control, so to speak, refusing to confirm to curfew and other family "rules". The gest of this was when the daughter came in drunk at 4 a.m when she was suppose to be in by 11 p.m. The Mother read her the riot act so the girl picked up the phone and called the police. Evidently in this case it didn't matter that the 16 year old was drunk, just what she said.
All kinds of social workers came to this 16 year old's defense. Just because no one had seen any abuse or alleged bruises, etc. didn't mean they didn't occur. The years went by with the woman, her husband and other daughter defending her, but the family eventually broke up. Sad. Eventually, after her parents divorced etc. the brat admitted it wasn't true before the trial was over. That she was just mad about her Mom reading the riot act to her and grounding her. Too late, the damage was done.
As the woman said, she lost her home, her husbands, friends whether they doubted her or not, labeled a child abuser, and it cost her a fortune to defend herself for a crime she never committed and was never found guilty of due to the brat's finally admitting it wasn't true.
The daughter wanted to get back with her Mom, but the Mother had been so throughly hurt about what she had told others and how they tore her apart, she said she will never, ever have anything to do with the child again.
I can't imagine going through that. I don't think I would have anything to do with the girl again either.
The girl's story was that once the ball got rolling and all the social workers, etc, came to her "aid" she felt trapped, that she felt couldn't stop it.
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Interesting, Mia! I need to take a deep dive....
"I would guess that most of
"I would guess that most of us here have dealt with a narcissist. Why is it they seem to pop up more in step life?"
I've thought about this, and I think they are more *tolerated* in steplife. Think about it - if you came across some of the behaviors skids have displayed anywhere else in life, you wouldn't tolerate it. But because these are your brand-new-early-relationship-strong-feelings soulmate's "babies", you try like hell to justify and tolerate it. Plus, being 1) selfish and 2) not "putting kids first" are ingrained in our society as the 2 worst things a woman can do.
And as far as putting up with inappropriate relationships between exes - same deal. Behavior that would cause you to immediately tell a new boyfriend to take a hike is agonized over and tolerated because "it's for the KIDS!" He talks to his ex for half an hour every day? Texting 20 times a day? Fixes her toilet, mows her lawn, goes to her house on Christmas and the skids birthdays? Any childfree guy did that and we would nope out because that's bizarre and makes a new girlfriend feel like a third wheel in her own relationship. But if it's for the KIDS.....to "have a problem with that" puts you right up (down?) there with the devil himself.
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Good observations. Sadly they are true in many cases. And so it snowballs; the kids get away with nonsense, which brings more nonsense that keeps on rolling....
My Grad A+ narcisist SD
My Grad A+ narcisist SD played her game and lost big time. She had stolen something from me and my H knew she had taken it to. Unpon being exposed and claiming not to have the item she offered to give me $500. A very large amount. This she did expecting as normally happened her Father to turn it down and thus she would be absolved and look gracious. Well, H turned it down, but when I heard about it I told him to call her back and tell her "H*ll YES I would acceptthe $$$" That is when it got real interesting as she tried to back track, reduce the amount, etc. She even threatened me that as I get older and need more help she wouldn't do anything for me. My response is that we are ALREADY old and NEED help and she does NOTHING for us now so what would be the difference....money please, I accept checks. LOL!
H even told me that I should not accept the $$ because she would never forget. I told H that she was the one that offered it so what was HER problem? You can bet your bottom dollar she fumes about this every day. That was $$$ she had to give me, that she offered but I was suppose to be gracious and understanding and not take. This time it didn't work.
Did you ever get the money?
Did you ever get the money?
Rumplestilskin - You bet I
Rumplestilskin - You bet I got the money - a check. I wasn't afraid that she would stop pament etc., because then I would have pressed charges - and I think she knew it. I was DONE, basically with both of them.
Actually I did expect her to do something like that and I told H. what I would do if the check bounced. I am certain he passed it on to her. H was trying his da*ndest to get me to not cash it. Hey, she offered, I didn't ask or demand. I saw no problem.
I agree we do seem to have a
I agree we do seem to have a large number of people with various mental problems, etc. Some are legit. Others are encouraged and fed on by various social workers. Let's face it, it is tough to find a good counselor. Now, everyone that commits a crime did so because he had a lousy childhood, wasn't loved enough, etc.
A very good friend of mine is
A very good friend of mine is a social worker and I can vouch for her intelligence! On the other hand, I have encountered people with masters' degrees in social work who couldn't write a coherent sentence, and I honestly wondered how the hell they made it through grad school (how did they?). I've also seen those who went into social work or counseling who seemed to be drawn to the careers in order to exert control over others. Human services nonprofits, especially those helping the most vulnerable, are filled with those types. Note that my SD has a master's degree in counseling. While she's not stupid, she is one of the last people on earth I'd want guiding me through therapy. She is weak, has identity issues, and is a religious fanatic. NOT stable.
With all of this being said, I was a terrible test-taker (like many) in my youth (anxiety-fed), so I'd score high on some tests and very low on others. I believed I was a dummy until I went to college, where I surprised myself and did very well. But I do agree that the world of social work and counseling seems to be lacking when it comes to very good professionals. A very good friend suggested years ago when DH and I went to marriage counseling that we find a therapist with a doctorate degree. Her words: "You need to find someone smarter than you."
Mia - I believe the, shall we
Mia - I believe the, shall we say a lot of substandard people that go into social work go and work for gov. agencies and charities where there is basically no responsibility. Places where they can't get fired easily. The degree is not that hard unless you go for a Masters or Doctorate.
I also agree with you wholeheartedly about how friggin stupid a lot of people are that have college degrees and above.
Back in the 1960's when I was trying to make up my mind what I wanted to be, the high school counselors would tell us to get our degree in teaching because there would always be a need for teachers.
I scored high on some tests
I scored high on some tests and low on others as well and I had no (perhaps naively) test taking anxiety. Lol
Is home economics even an actual major anymore? My great Aunt had a masters in home economics. Her house was neat as a pin and she was an excellent seamstress. She and her husband never had kids, didn't want them.
In the area where I live the social services dept is in cahoots with court professionals, judges, lawyers, court affiliated therapists, custody evaluatiors, parent coordinators and the list goes on and on. The new workers don't realize they are being used, the good workers quit and the ones that stay on are the corrupt ones. They don't care about kids, they care about scratching each others backs. $$$