Do I have a reason to question SS's gift to DH?
My question is about whether the gift I'm about to describe is appropriate and whether in general, SS's approach to gift-giving is too extravagant and should be deterred. This Xmas, my dh and I decided to not waste money on gifts we don't need, and instead use the money to go out for a nice dinner. We have been giving the kids cash the last two years, and also some small gifts. I guess dh told 19 yo SS about our plans because SS decided that he would also give his dad the gift of taking him out to dinner. SS also got my BS and me a small gift of about $10 each, and his dad a gift that costs like $30-$50. SS seems to actually enjoy shopping for Xmas gifts. He's very materialistic, and seems to take pride in picking out nice objects. SS has a minimum wage PT job while attending college, and pretty much spends every penny of it, and then some (I've posted several times about how SS steals money from DH). SS has literally $0 in savings. He's had his current job since September, and probably earns about $800-$1000 a month. In a way, I'm impressed that SS did have enough money to buy this years' gifts, but in another way, it's a part of his impulsive need to shop and spend. My BS saves most of his money and has several thousands in savings, but even then, I discourage my BS from getting me expensive gifts which he's more than happy to oblige.
Up until last year, SS never got me a Xmas gift, and never gets me birthday gifts. Last year, SS got me 2 nice Xmas gifts which surprised me. I strongly believe they were intended for his GF, but they broke up before they could exchange gifts. SS got his dad a $150 pair of sneakers last Xmas and a few other items. DH and I both blaked at the notion that an 18 yo would spend so much money, but DH thought it was a nice gesture and accepted it without heistation. I'm totally okay with not getting gifts, and honestly prefer something small rather than getting an expensive gift from a college student who should be saving his money.
If and when the time comes and SS tries to take his dad out for his gift dinner, do I just graciously wish them 'bon appetit'? Maybe under different circumstances, I wouldn't give it a second thought. I actually go out to lunch once a week with BS without DH, and so do DH and SS when I'm at work. It's just that SS has resented my presence so much and has tried so hard over the years to get DH to ditch me to spend time with him, devising plans and activities that would force DH's hands. Even leading up to Xmas, SS came out of his room several times to loudly ask DH what he wanted for Xmas in front of me. DH told me I was being paranoid, but it seemed a little too ostentatious to be a simple case of benign neglect.
I also suspect that this "gift" is just a ruse to get a free dinner. I think there's a good chance that SS will turn the tables on DH and suddenly find himself broke, causing his dad to pay for the "gift" dinner. That would be something he does, and in any case, SS tries every which way to get restaurant food instead of a home cooked meal. He has take-out or delivery for almost 100% of his meals when he's with us these days. Dh and SS have this understanding that dad is responsible for feeding him while on his watch, so every meal is on DH even when SS is out with his friends. But many of his friends are away at college. The last several Saturdays, SS has declined our home cooked dinners because he's "going out with his friends". He'll leave the house at 7:00, eat his restaurant meal paid for by dad, return at 7:45, and declare that it was a short outing. I'm suspicious because on one such occasion, it was with a friend who was visiting from college out of state. So you haven't seen this friend in 3 months, but you guys only got together for 45 minutes, including the time it took for you to bike there? SS also devises other ways to get his dad to get him delivery or take out ('dad', you have never had pizza like this before. You have to try it.' 'Dad, I'm going to go out to get myself a sandwhich. You want one? (If dad says yes, dad pays for the whole thing, or if no, SS wil reluctantly take something from the fridge)). I think eating at home, sharing meals, helping with clean up, etc. is good for kids. But I guess at 19, the benefits of that have gone?
Sorry for the long post. I thought surely my question this time would be short and sweet, but I get to venting and detailing my grievances, and it becomes too long very quickly. So thank you for "listening" and if possible answering my question.
I'd accept and say thank you
I agree SD's financial judgement is poor and he is manipulating your DH's generosity with the outside meals. But, he did get nice gifts for you both, something many of the kids on this site didn't do.
Over time, he will (hopefully) get more financially wise and give gifts in line with his income. All 5 of my kids have given an inappropriate gift at one time or another, I have, too. I can tell you're worried about his overall spending, that's exactly how I felt about YSS57. My YSS still overspends but he's living his life, being a good dad to 3 girls and certainly not asking my opinion about anything. Lol.
I've been reading through the
I've been reading through the threads, and do understand that SS giving any gifts at all seems like a better situation than most. Maybe I shouldn't be looking a gift horse in the mouth, as they say. But my experience in the last few years has been that SS is still hostile towards me, but has taken a more covert tact. He will sometimes greet me and act civil in front of his dad so that he doesn't get in trouble, but that doesn't mean he has had a change of heart. In a way, it's harder to manage when SS is duplicitous because he can still covertly disrespect me, but can never be called out on it. I think the biggest thing that prompted me to post is the anxiety I feel about SS using this "gift" as another way to get dh to exlude me. I never understood why SS felt he had to compete for dh's affection. It could have been that our love for dh bonded us as well. But here we are.
I'm very familiar with this
I'm very familiar with this behavior via my SD. I was lucky, though, in that she always lived in another state and was PAS'ed to the gills, and we rarely saw her. Still, the covert aggression, whether in-person, online, by mail, email, or phone, felt impossible to deal with/confront. She is like the female Eddie Haskell from Leave it to Beaver. Super sweet and innocent-acting to her daddy and always saying, "Say hi to Mia!" but extremely passive aggressive/downright cruel at times toward me. You can look like a monster stating the truth about these monsters.
She would go as far as to ask DH and I to pose for a photo for her, then I'd hear her in the backseat of our car talking to her brother, "Well, I edited THAT out of the photo." Then she'd laugh. "That" was me. In hindsight, I should have asked her to hand me her phone so that I could see what she was talking about. Anyway, there are 100s of examples like this. It took my DH a long time to see it. So, I feel for you. I don't know what you do except fully confront it all or somehow emotionally disengage/compartmentalize. (Now you see where writers get their ideas for characters in so many shows/movies!)
Thanks. I do think your SD
Thanks. I do think your SD sounds like my SS. I wrote about this in a post, but my DH and I went to dinner with some old friends of his. They knew each other through the kids since the kids were in kindergarten. At one point, the wife of the couple shared that SS was always socially skillfull but in an Eddie Haskell kind of way, and we all laughed, including DH. I was praying that he really heard that.
Another thing SS did when he was 15. I overheard him tell a friend on the phone 'do you want to see a picture of my father's GF's socially autistic son? haha". My BS is not special needs, but is socially awkward. I was very hurt, and I've never did this before, but I "told on" him to his dad who grabbed his phone. It turned out that the picture of my BS was from a trip we all took together, and wasn't particularly weird. I think SS specifically took it to share with his friends and to poke fun of it. But frankly, his friends wouldn't bite because they're too nice for that. In any case, that made me more mad than almost anything he's done to me.
I just think because of the expectations around the holidays and being sequestered all together with nowhere else to go, any kind of ill feelings comes to the surface. But we are no better or no worse than we were yesterday. I just now have this "gift" looming and more such gifts if it works for him. Another tool for SS to disrupt and control.
However, I'm more at peace with the situation. I'm realizing that at 19, DH is a little more keeping his distance. It's one thing for SS to want lots of daddy time when he was 13, 14. But I do think DH realizes that a healthy 19 yo is more interested in friends and doing his own thing.
Trust your vibe
I lived this and can assure you your gut instinct is correct. Manipulative users don't change, they just enhance their game as time goes on.
Yes...
...agreed.
It seems there are so many
It seems there are so many issues related to manipulation and money regarding SS that anyone's head would be spinning. He's a master manipulator and your DH is ok with that. I get this could be maddening to witness. Is there any way you can learn to emotionally detach? Your DH hasn't seemed concerned about SS's behavior (being stolen from, etc). If his finances toward feeding SS do not in any way impact you financially, I'd try let it go. As for the dinner out, I'd tell them to have a good time.
Next time, tell SS you'd like to talk to him alone, as you can give him some good ideas and help the gift be more of a surprise. Then you are "in on it" vs left out. Take the wind right out of his sails.
Thanks MorningMia. You have
Thanks MorningMia. You have good advice. Not sure I can carry that out. I try to disengage as much as possible, and talking to him about the gift, taking the wind out of his sails seem to me like more engagement than I can handle.
Yes, it makes me dizzy to think that SS steals from his dad at one point, turns around and spends that money to buy DH a gift that DH is grateful for. Why not just spend what you earn? And why not try saving the money for the future? SS still holds out hope of going away to college, and I'm sure other aspirations. He has $0 in savings.
But yeah, I am okay minding my own business and was looking the other way about all the take-out, but this new "gift" idea of SS got me anxious.
I am questioning gifts too.
I am questioning gifts too. SS(16)decided to get a gift for SO this year and gave me a small gift for the pets. Neither him or SD18 has ever gotten him anything. The family is always full of manipulation. I am trying to think it was to be nice. But he will start driving in January and I am waiting for some big ask.
I feel bad to be suspicious
I feel bad to be suspicious of SS's motivations, and it seems like the nice thing to do would be to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think for me, it's that any ill will on the part of SS remains somewhat vague and elusive even though I am aware of it. But then at certain moments, the dynamic takes on clearer form as during the holidays, and any hurt feelings I've harbored come to the surface.Then there is no longer plausible deniability.
Don't feel bad
You feeling bad is exactly what the manipulative user/thief counts on to provide cover for their "game." It's a total energy-suck, causing you to be hyper-alert to the current/next con. Then, you doubt yourself and feel bad for assuming it's a con... then you get proven correct that it WAS indeed a con... and have to choke on it because DH is thrilled to be the "mark" that got robbed again, and SS getting AGAIN rewarded by his successful con-job.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
You are NOT crazy or paranoid. Past is prologue, and you're really seeing what you're seeing. Trust.
Thanks for this post. I've
Thanks for this post. I've been clinging on to this thought to prevent myself from delving into another guilt spiral. It does make me think why DH is so enthused about being a mark. I think that if he can transform SS's cons into a totally cool, innocuous teen thing in his mind, then he can assuage himself into thinking his son is just fine. No need to worry or do anything, 'SS is just being a go-getting, clever rascal.'
I don’t get it
If SS was giving his BF a gift if a meal. It's should with you. Not SS and DH. Then DH has the time and money to take DS out for a free meal but not you? I would be going out to eat before SS goes out.
Yeah, I think that's part of
Yeah, I think that's part of it. It might be likened to giving one sibling a gift of dinner out, but not the other if it were the stepparent giving the gift? But maybe the others are rifght that it's okay for the SK to have their moment with their BP.
I...
...have been thinking about this since I read your post this morning. The gift is just a symptom of the problem; it is what the gift represents...SS trying to gain control and one up you. He sounds cunning and sneaky, with his approach of trying to look like the good guy. I understand why you are uneasy about this, and I understand your distress. I am sorry you are going through this, I care.
From the responses, it seems like many here have been in similar shoes. I know I have. OSD is pretty smart considering she is not intelligent; she, too, is cunning. Strange how someone so dim can really excel at causing trouble. Imagine how good things could be if skids put the same effort into doing good deeds?!
It has taken me 2 years to learn that I just have to accept OSD for what she is. There is not one good thing she has shown me, it has all been over the top negative. What I can do is control how I respond, or don't respond. My focus is on supporting my DH, because he is the only one in his family who sees her for what she is and has said "No". I know that is not easy to admit that your child has serious issues. Since she has been blocked, it has been bliss for us. When and if that changes is up to her. DH has made it clear that to be in his life she needs to make amends and treat us both with respect. I don't see that happening....
Thanks Trudie. You assess the
Thanks Trudie. You assess the situation accurately, and I think your advice is sound. I believe that things would be better for me if I could accept SS for who he is and accept my reactions to the things he does as logical. Instead, I question both whether I'm getting the facts about him right and whether my reactions to SS are too mean or unkind. Yes, SS is trying to control and game the situation for whatever gains he thinks is important. I can be mad about it, but I can't control what he does or what dh does. I can only control my attitude about it. I think that's the kind of attitude your advising, and I do think that would be a good attitude to have.
You are welcome!
I really do believe that your reactions to SS are logical...I really do believe you are seeing him for who he is. Do you wish it wasn't true? Definitely! Because you are a good, fair, and thoughtful person. Many people, in this world, do not have those qualities. Your SS is one of those people and sadly, you have to deal with him.
SS is going to do whatever he wants to do; you are right, you can't control him but you can control your reaction...or lack of reaction. Don't they all really just want attention? Whether it is positive or negative? Don't feed the beast! Or just say "Bless your heart." and move on. Just know that his actions have no reflection on you, they are all about him. Wise people see him for what he is, but wise people see you for who you are too.
In reference to OSD, one of my friends has always told me, "Trudie, she's playing checkers, you had better be playing chess." I would always reply that I don't know how to play chess. But I do! It may not be my friend's version of chess, but I have my own version and it works for me. My friend's version is to kill them with kindness; she has mastered the art of putting someone in their place and they don't even realize it. She is that savvy! 'Chess' for me is disengaging; I am nothing more than cordial to those who do not meet my standard of behavior. I am gracious and polite, I smile, and I move on. I don't have time for games or the people who play them. What could your version of chess be?
I want to share this about gifting.... OSD gave DH a Christmas gift the first year I knew him. There have been no gifts since (Christmas, Birthday, Father's Day) until the last 6 months. (She is all me, me, me! What will you do for me? Etc. Greed and manipulation rule her world.) First, DH had set a hard boundary, last June, that in order for them to have a relationship OSD had to make things right with me. In response, she miraculously had a Father's Day gift and card for him and she wanted to deliver it! (She is not welcome in our home.) The fact that he told her not to come over (numerous times) enraged her and she attempted to break into our home. It was a scary, ugly ordeal. If it ever happens again, I will not fail to call the police. Second, he reinforced that boundary, in November, because she had been attempting to worm her way back in. I was glad that he added the caveat of she must treat us both with respect. ('Both" is key here; I think he finally gets it that she has been treating him with a total lack of respect for the past 20+ years.) In response, she gifted him at Christmas during 'family' Christmas. (The gift was odd, very feminine in nature...not something you would gift a man.) Do you see a pattern here? DH set boundaries and she attempted to 'buy' her way back in. It didn't work. I mentioned this to DH and he mentioned that the other reason was that she wanted to make him look bad because he did not gift her. This observation shows tremendous growth on his part! Either reason, her motivation is ugly and self-serving. Just no....
You know a father will never
Let his kids pay for a meal/ food. So you are right SS is eating for free. DH knows this too.